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It should be simple - 300Tdi FIP Timing.....

Discussion in 'Defender 90 / 110 / 130' started by Saint.V8, Feb 3, 2017.

  1. Saint.V8

    Saint.V8 Dyed-in-the-wool 100% RR Junkie

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    Following on,

    The need to check the timing is because she smokes on the little throttle overrun phase....

    Thinking this could be FIP timing (most likely), Valve Stem Seals (quite possible) or Turbo Seals going (less likely)....I decided to take the intercooler to intake manifold hose off and give it a run about.

    Heres a vid:



    Then I recconnected the hose, heres the vid:



    Seems like the smoke is the same, so this can almost remove the Turbo out of the equation so I am more convinced it is FIP timing as first cold start she fires on first turn of the key but smokes like a bitch and struggles to rev for about 30-40 seconds.

    After the runs above, whilst parked up I revved up to about half throttle and back down again. She seems a bit lumpy at the midpoint and very smokey. At idle she is clear as a bell, so I am more inclined to FIP timing issues rather than Stem Seals at the moment.....



    Until I can time the pump, and find TDC I am p**sing in the wind at the moment. Once I know the pump is timed it is pointless fault finding anything else.

    So to find TDC without removing the cover, would it be possible to use a DTI and rod through the No1 glow plug hole and find where the top is....?? But would I be at the mercy of piston being on the rock and never finding the true TDC of the crank?

    Thoughts??
     
  2. Gmacz

    Gmacz Active Member

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    Crank pulley has a tdc mark on it that lines up with a line on case.
    How are you going to get cam marks lined up without pulling case off.
     
  3. Saint.V8

    Saint.V8 Dyed-in-the-wool 100% RR Junkie

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    I am assuming the crank/cam timing is good as she runs ok, even a tooth out between the pair can cause piston/valve clash.

    I just need to time the FIP and to do that you need to know when at TDC pretty much spot on.

    Viewed from above I cannot clearly see the pulley mark or the mark on the timing cover, and if I could, I couldn't do it with the accuracy needed to time the FIP.
     
  4. Gmacz

    Gmacz Active Member

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    Even with the timing case off, timing is still not spot on because you are lining up a woodruff key with a big arrow. It is probably closer to get pulley mark to line up with outer case line. The joy of modified land rovers, the above is 200 tdi, guessing 300tdi is the same.
     
  5. Gmacz

    Gmacz Active Member

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    Looking at your vids, are you sure the injectors are firing properly. I would check these first and see if any are leaking. Test them while cranking engine and connected to pipe.
     
  6. lynall

    lynall Well-Known Member

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    Thinking out loud here, what about dti down glow plug measured either side of where you think tdc is then mark up dead in between the two points for tdc?
     
  7. Saint.V8

    Saint.V8 Dyed-in-the-wool 100% RR Junkie

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    That is (hopefully) todays job at lunchtime!....worth a shot right?!
     
  8. Saint.V8

    Saint.V8 Dyed-in-the-wool 100% RR Junkie

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    Annoyingly I have found the problem.....

    Why can't people do things fecking properly??

    Proceeded to take the front timing cover off, attached my pulley holding tool, got my 3ft breaker bar and prepared myself for the fight and struggle to undo the crank dog bolt......only for it to literally undo with just the weight of the bar on it!

    Needless to say I think you know what I found once ai pulled the cover off.......

    Yep, the crank sprocket is happily munching its way through the woodruff key(s).

    Aaaaarrrrggghhhhhh....... Its not fecking difficult to do it up properly is it? Loctite, tighten to 80N.m then another 90deg.....ffs people!

    So anyways as you can see from the photo, that is what is wrong with the fuel timing. Cam to FIP timing is dead on and the sprocket position is correct but the crank is half a keyway out.....enough to really cause fuel timing issues and potential for valve and pistons to meet....

    Bastids.....

    Still now I know the motor I have bought aint to bad, it has just been worked on by a muppet is all.

    (NOTE: photo of sprocket was taken on the pi$$, the key way is 12 o'clock position)
     

    Attached Files:

  9. lynall

    lynall Well-Known Member

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    Seen that real bad on a 200tdi range rover but not on a 300, once crank bolt tightened a dab of paint on bolt head and pulley means a quick visual confirms its hasnt moved.
     
  10. David_Cooper

    David_Cooper Active Member

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    I think (hope) you've caught that just in time. I'd fit new woodruff keys and check the crank pulley. The good news is, that's a modified crank pulley with the shoulders so at least someone has spent some time on it. Shame they didn't do the bolt up properly..
    What type tensioner and idler does it have?
     
  11. Saint.V8

    Saint.V8 Dyed-in-the-wool 100% RR Junkie

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    I think I have caught this in time too.....our previous 200Tdi powered Ninety Truck Cab snapped No8 push rod twice and after the second time it happened and I tried to time the pump I was getting all sorts of issues....so I pulled it all apart......

    Thread here: https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-ro...ange-and-cylinder-head-refresh-how-to.282586/

    And found this: 200TDi - Why does my Crankshaft Sprocket/Gear move??

    (Full thread on this here: https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/200tdi-why-does-my-crankshaft-sprocket-gear-move.281910/ )

    It was truly shagged, but thankfully it hadn't damaged the crank shaft.

    As for the idler and tensioner, they are metal without shoulder.

    It does annoy me when people skimp or skip basic steps....the bolt had not thread lock/loctite on and was loose as feck......I mean it really isn't rocket science...thread lock, tighten to 80N.m then another 90deg.....it is that simple!

    New timing belt, sprocket, idler, tensioner, gaskets etc coming tomorrow.

    I am considering if it is worth pulling the head off, and fitting new stem seals too....but not sure yet.
     
  12. David_Cooper

    David_Cooper Active Member

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    Nice one, I reckon once you've got the timing correct, the smoke will go..
     
  13. Saint.V8

    Saint.V8 Dyed-in-the-wool 100% RR Junkie

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    Fingers crossed....
     
  14. julianf

    julianf Well-Known Member

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    Here are some photos of mine (300) -

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Its chattering had worn half the key away, and enlarged the groove in the sprocket.

    The sprocket woodruff key was a pain to remove. I think that, in the end, i had to cut it with a dremel type tool.

    Again, the crank nut was loose.

    It did, however, mean that i managed to purchase an affordable 300 110csw though, so it wasnt all bad.
     
  15. Saint.V8

    Saint.V8 Dyed-in-the-wool 100% RR Junkie

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    Yes, I have a feeling I am going to face a fight with my keyway too
     
  16. Kwakerman

    Kwakerman Well-Known Member

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    "I am considering if it is worth pulling the head off, and fitting new stem seals too....but not sure yet"


    Just do one at a time, if you pull the head and it still smokes afterwards then you will be wondering FIP or seals!
     
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  17. Saint.V8

    Saint.V8 Dyed-in-the-wool 100% RR Junkie

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    Good point.....
     
  18. julianf

    julianf Well-Known Member

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    Thinking about it now, im not sure how i did the key.. Maybe i just drilled some shallow holes along it, and whacked it, but i thought i used a small cutting disc from the top.

    Im not sure that you can get clearance from the side though (for the body of the dremel [etc] tool)

    Heat would be nice, but a blow torch would just cause a whole load of bother, so i didnt do that.

    I remember being quite pleased when it started to move though!
     
  19. jamesmartin

    jamesmartin Well-Known Member

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    you can do stem seals with head in place 2 cylinders at a time
     
  20. Saint.V8

    Saint.V8 Dyed-in-the-wool 100% RR Junkie

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    True, But I don't have the right spring compressor for that unfortunately.