HELP! Auto gearbox problems...

I'm having some problems... I hope someone can help...

Here are some bullet points (very hard to summarise these symptoms I'm afraid)...

• It's possible that the ATF and auto gearbox filter has never been changed. It has a regular service history up to 96,000 miles (but with no details), and it's unknown what happened between there and 168,000 miles (where I am now).
  
  
• I bought it at 145,000 miles and *I* have not changed the ATF or filter ever.
  
  
• Since I bought it (Sep 2010), the torque converter has been reluctant to lockup at 50mph at the start of a journey. Once it's all up to temperature though it locks up better.
  
  
• It will lockup better at the start of a journey if I accelerate through 50mph as fast as possible, while ensuring it stays in 4th (i.e. no kick-down). If I gently take it over 50mph or let is accelerate itself down a hill it does not lockup properly at the start of the journey.
  
  
• When it "fails" to lockup (as mentioned above), it always does try... it just kinda "half" locks up (i.e. the revs drop at the right moment, but they don't drop enough and the revs still change if I accelerate or decelerate).

Recently we towed our caravan to the Convoy for Heroes and on the way there and back I noticed that once we'd been up a few long gradual slopes at 45-50mph with foot-to-floor, for the rest of the journey the TC would not lockup at all. It would attempt it (as above) and the revs would drop, but they would not drop enough and the revs would still go up and down as if it were only part-locked.

• When we got there (after 1.5 hours at below 50mph with a few hills) I pulled the ATF dipstick. What looked like a little puff of steam came out the dipstick tube. Probably oil steam. Maybe this is normal?
  
  
• The ATF is not the scary "brown" colour, but it does have a hint of brown in it now (after this long journey with the caravan). It's basically still mostly the usual "cherry red", but with a hint of brown in it now...
  
  
• My 0-60 time seems to have dropped even though the engine revs are remaining high. I don't care about this, but it suggests something's amiss.
  
  
• This morning, I noticed it was reluctant to change from 1st to 2nd... it revved higher than normal in 1st before kicking into 2nd. The rest of the journey was relatively normal.

So... Ashcroft suggest the "govenor valve" (or something like that) is jammed, and are suggseting I either buy a new TC or a new gearbox with TC. I don't have the cash for this.

My local garage (knowledgable, but not LR specific) suggests I just put some flushing fluid in it for a week and then drain the ATF, replace the filter and fill it back up with ATF again.

What do you suggest?? And if I do drain the ATF and replace it, how many times should I drain/replace/drive for 2 miles/drain/replace/drive for 2 miles etc... to get rid of the old ATF in the TC?

Thanks in advance!!

just change fluid first ,if blackish may signify lock up clutch burning out ,(another t/c )if not atf is very detergent so may clean any stuck valve,with oil filter change,failing that governor can be removed from rear housing and checked/cleaned

thanks, james... i'm going to change the filter anyway, but how many times should I re-fill with ATF, drive around, drain it and re-fill it again?

you can only get half the ATF out, of course, so by only doing it once i will have half old ATF, half new ATF... should I do it twice or three times? or is that excessive?

once ,and again next year,they dont get filthy like manual box unless somethings is broken ,

Ah, ok... well mine is still mostly cherry red, but it does have a hint of brown since the long journey with the caravan this weekend. It was perfect "cherry red" before that.

Is it not worth doing it twice in this particular instance, just to be cautious?

I would change the oil twice and fit a new filter, 6nm is the torque for the screws. Drive the motor to get it warm the start of in "3" get up to about 55 mph and on a moderate throttle put it in "D" watch the rev counter it should go straight into lock up, there is a valve in the body that reverses the flow of fluid through the TC which engages the clutch and the engagement speed can be altered by changing the spring in the valve.
You can remove the valve body and strip and clean which is straight forward but you will need a map of where the hysteresis valves go and which way up also the ball locations just be very clean. I have done a few of these but I think that the gasket is hard to get now, I used to get them from ZF trade counter in Nottingham until they started with a minimum order of £60
Also there is a valve body alignment tool needed to refit the body.
The governor on the output shaft controls the line pressure and can stick, these are very easy to remove and clean once the transfer box is out

Hello sponge bob, if I were you, I would dump the old oil (approx 4.5ltrs) & put new oil in. Then drive round for about 500mls, then do the whole lot again but this time change the filter as well.

The actuation of the TC lock-up is MV (motorised valve) 4 in the valve block. If you are lucky, the first set of new oil will "wash out" the muck from the valves and get trapped in the filter screen. Then with the new oil in you're as good as it gets without stripping the boxes.

Incidently are you familiar with the refill process?

The refilling is done via the tube in the engine bay; put in 3 or 4 ltrs (assuming 4.5ltrs comes out), then start the engine, move the gear lever through all the positions leaving it in each one for a few seconds to take up drive, then back to P.

With the engine still running, carefully top up the level until it is between the two marks on the stick - with the engine still running,this is important. You cannot establish the correct level without the engine running.

Good luck

Dave

Autos have five gears [four gears and overdrive gear] and not four as most people think. It goes into fourth at about 28 mph unless you accelerate hard. When you hear the revs drop [you say it half locks up] that is the box going into fourth. You then hear the revs drop again that is the box going into overdrive

thebiglad said:

Hello sponge bob, if I were you, I would dump the old oil (approx 4.5ltrs) & put new oil in. Then drive round for about 500mls, then do the whole lot again but this time change the filter as well.

The actuation of the TC lock-up is MV (motorised valve) 4 in the valve block. If you are lucky, the first set of new oil will "wash out" the muck from the valves and get trapped in the filter screen. Then with the new oil in you're as good as it gets without stripping the boxes.

Incidently are you familiar with the refill process?

The refilling is done via the tube in the engine bay; put in 3 or 4 ltrs (assuming 4.5ltrs comes out), then start the engine, move the gear lever through all the positions leaving it in each one for a few seconds to take up drive, then back to P.

With the engine still running, carefully top up the level until it is between the two marks on the stick - with the engine still running,this is important. You cannot establish the correct level without the engine running.

Good luck

Dave

Click to expand...

mv 3 ,buts its mechanical control on a 300 tdi auto

rollin danny said:

Autos have five gears [four gears and overdrive gear] and not four as most people think. It goes into fourth at about 28 mph unless you accelerate hard. When you hear the revs drop [you say it half locks up] that is the box going into fourth. You then hear the revs drop again that is the box going into overdrive

Click to expand...

they have 4 gears and lock up ,clue is in the name zf 4 hp22,4th is overdrive

rollin danny said:

Autos have five gears [four gears and overdrive gear] and not four as most people think. It goes into fourth at about 28 mph unless you accelerate hard. When you hear the revs drop [you say it half locks up] that is the box going into fourth. You then hear the revs drop again that is the box going into overdrive

Click to expand...

Sorry Danny, but they really do only have 4 gears plus torque lock-up, which is not a gear.

Only when we move to DIII do we get more than 4 gears on an autobox - DIII has 6.


The posters problem is that the TC lock-up is not working properly so it feels a bit like it's locked up but he's still getting slip.

thebiglad said:

Sorry Danny, but they really do only have 4 gears plus torque lock-up, which is not a gear.

Only when we move to DIII do we get more than 4 gears on an autobox - DIII has 6.


The posters problem is that the TC lock-up is not working properly so it feels a bit like it's locked up but he's still getting slip.

Click to expand...

Sorry about that. What I meant to say was 4 gears plus tc lock-up

Right... thanks for all the advice, people. Here's what I'm gonna do:

1. Remove dip-stick and drain plug & drain as much ATF as possible.
2. Replace "oil screen", O rings, gasket etc...
3. Refill with slightly less ATF than came out by pouring it through the dip-stick tube.
4. Run engine, cycle through gears, put into park, top up, repeat, etc, etc, etc... to get level right.
5. Drive around for 5 days doing 40-50 miles per day (I'll check the level each morning when ATF is cold, but gearbox cycled through the gears).
6. Repeat steps 1, 2, 3 and 4 (and yes - I did buy two brand new oil screens, gaskets, O rings etc...).

Sound good?

Also, is it worth checking anything regarding the kick-down cable or the throttle cable? Should they be adjusted or anything?

As for the governor and valve body, I'm not going to touch them. Apparently the governor is not accessible by just taking the sump and oil screen out and the valve body is a bit more work than just an oil change, so I'm not going to go to those lengths just yet.

Finally, how the hell do I refill through the dip-stick tube and measure the level with the dip-stick?? Last time I did this the dip-stick just picked up all the oil from the inside of the dip-stick tube and it was hard to tell! Maybe just give it 5 mins to settle into the sump rather than measuring while it's sitting the tube...

it takes time to check level because of filling through the tube ,just takes patience, altering kick down cable at bracket with throttle cable will alter shifts if it not snapped leave it just check lock nuts are tight

Thanks, james!

Will I need to remove the chassis cross-member, or just slacken it off? And will anything need supporting while this is going on?

yes you need to drop crosss member ,no nothing needs supporting unless you drop a mount then you need a jack under t/box ,speed brace is best for relocating clamp bolts for sump

OK... so here's the complete plan (which I have written down cos I know i'll forget it by the weekend):

1. Remove dip-stick and drain plug & drain as much ATF as possible (measuring it as it comes out).

2. Remove chassis cross-member (nothing should need supporting unless you drop a mount - then you need a jack under the transfer box. Speed brace is best for relocating clamp bolts for sump).

3. Fit new "oil screen", O rings, gasket etc... and refit sump & drain plug.

4. Refill with slightly less ATF than came out by pouring it through the dip-stick tube.

5. Run engine, cycle through gears, put into park, top up, repeat, etc, etc, etc... to get level right.

6. Drive around for 5 days doing 40-50 miles per day (I'll check the level each morning when ATF is cold, but gearbox cycled through the gears).

7. Repeat steps 1-5.

Altering kick down cable at bracket with throttle cable will alter shifts. If it's not snapped leave it, just check lock nuts are tight.

Governor & valve body not accessible, so nothing else to look at.

Sound perfect??

Do remember that you can only accurately check the oil level when:

1. You've started the cold engine and cycled through each gear position then back to P

2. The engine must remain running during the oil level check - otherwise you will get an overly high, inaccurate reading.


Dave

Ps I haven't done a TDi 300 autobox oil change in a little while, but I don't think I have to touch either cross-member at all?

thebiglad said:

Do remember that you can only accurately check the oil level when:

1. You've started the cold engine and cycled through each gear position then back to P

2. The engine must remain running during the oil level check - otherwise you will get an overly high, inaccurate reading.


Dave

Ps I haven't done a TDi 300 autobox oil change in a little while, but I don't think I have to touch either cross-member at all?

Click to expand...

Points 1 and 2 are already kinda in step 5, but I have re-written step 5:

5. With cold engine and cold ATF, start engine, cycle through gears (1, 2, 3, 4 *and* R), put into park, check ATF level & top up as necessary (keep engine running throughout), repeat, etc, etc, etc... The total amount going in should be roughly equal to what came out.

As for the cross-member, this does have to come out to replace the "oil screen" otherwise the sump will not come off apparently...

As said above. On the 300Tdi auto the crossmember does not need to be moved. Do a search for autobox change oils to be sure.

Hopefully you will find a difference. I get my oil and filter changed every 24000 miles

cheers

Jim A
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1996 300Tdi auto(jap reimport)