Freelander 1 Td4 Jatco 3rd to 4th Flaring, Slip- Solved

andyfreelandy said:

@Jayridium looks like the link has expired ?

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When I try to upload the ATSG file to the site I encounter the following error:

Need to go find a host that doesn't expire.

Fark it, heres a copy someone else uploaded:
https://procarmanuals.com/pdf-onlin...ok-atsg-automatic-transmission-service-group/

I'm guessing we're looking at page 100 in that manual - 2-3 FLARE OR SLIPS IN 3RD, 4TH AND 5TH. The diagram looks nice and clear and they say that the part is/was available, I'd happy pay someone to just swap out that piston!

Never seen F4 on mine yet. Since it's potentially a crack and only happens when hot, and feel free to shoot this down, but would using slightly heavier fluid maybe eliminate the issue? Could cause issues elsewhere, I know.

Matt2000 said:

I just re-activated my ancient account to post here as the 2002 Td4 auto I bought cheap in February has the same 3-4 shift issue. It's definitey not low mileage at almost 128K miles and it also only does it when warm.

Fortunately it's a third car and most drives are sub-30 mins so it isn't a major issue. I've found that it gets worse with lots of 3-4 shifts, presumably heating up the oil. if I cruise for a bit it gets better. As described, it changes into 4th but then seems to unlock until revved. I'm going to get the oil changed as I understand that to be a non-DIY friendly job but will then see how it goes, the 2-3 shift seems to be at a surprisingly high RPM too so it will be good to see if that is sorted.

This old hippo doesn't have a rear prop or VCU, which is why it was cheap but means it isn't worth chucking too much money at it and I'd be interested in what budget repairs are possible. I'll be keeping an eye on this.

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You can change the jatco auto oil in a FL1 yourself. Just need to follow the correct process.

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/jatco-automatic-gearbox.69336/page-3#post-1055940

Matt2000 said:

I'd happy pay someone to just swap out that piston!

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I'm going to pop the end off the gearbox and take the end drum to a transmission specialist who will exchange for a refurb one with new piston and new friction material.
Then I will pop it back again. Will be covering in photos in a few weeks if you are interested.
Waiting for heads up for the exchange drum as that is how they choose to do it.

Hippo said:

You can change the jatco auto oil in a FL1 yourself. Just need to follow the correct process.

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/jatco-automatic-gearbox.69336/page-3#post-1055940

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Thanks, I found a different thread that mentions it but this is more detailed. I don't really have a safe way of getting it up to a working height and level but I was considering just getting 5L and pumping it right to the bottom of the pan using my home made pressure filler (garden sprayer), hopefully displacing however much old fluid as I can. Of course, I still need to get to the level plug and I'm not ruler thin to do that on the ground.

andyfreelandy said:

I'm going to pop the end off the gearbox and take the end drum to a transmission specialist who will exchange for a refurb one with new piston and new friction material.
Then I will pop it back again. Will be covering in photos in a few weeks if you are interested.
Waiting for heads up for the exchange drum as that is how they choose to do it.

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Very interested indeed. I found the Mazda piston for sale on eBay but as you say it makes sense to have the whole refurbished while it's out. Is it Ashcroft you're taking it to? I see they do a Jatco refurb kit for just over 300 quid.
https://www.ebay.com/p/20015177663

Matt2000 said:

Thanks, I found a different thread that mentions it but this is more detailed. I don't really have a safe way of getting it up to a working height and level but I was considering just getting 5L and pumping it right to the bottom of the pan using my home made pressure filler (garden sprayer), hopefully displacing however much old fluid as I can. Of course, I still need to get to the level plug and I'm not ruler thin to do that on the ground.



Very interested indeed. I found the Mazda piston for sale on eBay but as you say it makes sense to have the whole refurbished while it's out. Is it Ashcroft you're taking it to? I see they do a Jatco refurb kit for just over 300 quid.
https://www.ebay.com/p/20015177663

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Make some HippoRamps [TM] to lift it.

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/hipporamps-how-to-guide.257760/

You really do need to follow the correct method. Especially if yer auto is playing up.

Matt2000 said:

Is it Ashcroft you're taking it to?

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Messaged Ashcroft, they no longer do Jatco apparently so found a local specialist. CD Transmissions in Plymouth.

Had a look at this problem this afternoon.
Have bought an 88k mile auto box to investigate and then possibly get refurbed for my TD4 at 200k !

In the meantime I thought I would try to remove the high clutch / reverse drum which I think is the cause of the flaring on my 31k miler.
Photos below, but basically, clean off crap, remove 15 or so smaller bolts and a couple of large one.
Top is eased off and an internal spring helps it.
The first drum to pull off is the drum I need.

Refitting is trickier as you have to align all the clutch plate notches on both stacks. It's a bit like a Rubix cube, except you can't pull the coloured dots off and move them if you can't do it !!

Prepare to remove end plate.
Inside of cover when removed.
Inside of gearbox with cover removed.
Drum slides off ready for repair.

When I remove the faulty drum, I will strip it and check the reverse drum has a crack in it, but the circlips are under tension and with the failed one I won't have to put it together again !!!

Well you make that look simple! I hope it really is just a case of having that drum rebuilt and reintalling it. If I had the parts in front of me I'm confident I could design a 3D printable alignment tool for the clutch plates, it only has to be small.

I guessed that Ashcroft maybe didn't service Jatco any more as they don't list any for sale. I will have a look and find out what my local transmission specialist is.

Yes, would certainly not worry about doing that again. Just need to check clearance to drop the box a bit on the lhs. I'm thinking engine steady off, maybe exhaust pipe Disconnect and lower engine and box at the box end until the plate is showing under the wheel arch.
I have a bracket to fit to the top of the box and then lower gently with an engine crane, but a jack under with a block of wood should work OK.

Also, taking the assembly apart requires some means of safely compressing the drums. Will look at that!!
Cleaning off the silicone stuff needs to be done with care so that you don't flick it into the box. A cover sheet taped in place I think.

Measurement suggests the box end is going to have to drop about 2.5 inch to get square on access to the end plate and be able to remove it. There is about 1.5 inch before the exhaust and driveshaft touch the front subframe, so to avoid damage I am dropping off the subframe, don't think the bolts will let it drop an inch, but will check.

Also, change of plan, the auto trans experts don't now want to do 'a bit of a gearbox' which I understand. They have had grief before with customers screwing up.
So, spare high/reverse drum is being stripped and new clutches fitted. Will photo the way I did it.
Then this drum is being fitted to the vehicle.
The removed one will be completely stripped (clutches is fairly easy, reverse piston is buried further inside) and a new piston fitted, then rebuilt as a spare to go back in the spare box.
Will document and photograph, there are about 30 bits in the drum which will need to be reassembled correctly.
Got a bad cold (not covid this time) so will be starting later in the week.

andyfreelandy said:

Measurement suggests the box end is going to have to drop about 2.5 inch to get square on access to the end plate and be able to remove it. There is about 1.5 inch before the exhaust and driveshaft touch the front subframe, so to avoid damage I am dropping off the subframe, don't think the bolts will let it drop an inch, but will check.

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I'm sure there's enough space to get the end plate off, without dropping the subframe Andy.

Maybe, but having trialled it on the spare it has to come off straight and takes about 1.5 inch before it can be slid as it has a forked reverse piston fitted to the inside of the lid that has to come all the way out of the frame. The chassis rail is a bit tight to remove it.
There is also a long tubular protrusion holding a piston cast as part of the lid, about 2 inches long. Check photo of inside cover above.

If it was a flat plate then yes!!

Nodge68 said:

I'm sure there's enough space to get the end plate off, without dropping the subframe Andy.

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OK John, you were right!!
Only just right. I had another think and look on ways to reduce work. Figured if I lowered the box until the driveshaft touched the subframe and I didn't have enough room I could pop the driveshaft out to get a bit more.
Didn't need to, some careful jiggling and out it came.
Rebuilt the drum, all good. Fitted. Just got to put cover back now.
Closer exam on the old one shows piston defects, can't see a crack with naked eye but will think of a way to magnify the old eyeballs.
Will do that at leisure when end plate is back on.
Thanks for the thoughts and encouragement!!

Of course, if it won't go back on then.......

All back together!!

Will let gasket set and fill with atf then test tomorrow.
Photos and test results soon!!

Seems like a great result, looking forward to seeing the pictures. Any tricks you've learnt for rebuilding the drum without parts flying everywhere?

All in due course!!
Will be posting the process later.

Have a look at this close up of the reverse piston while you wait!

andyfreelandy said:

OK John, you were right!!
Only just right. I had another think and look on ways to reduce work.

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I did have some prior knowledge. I've taken the end cover off on my V6 for sealing as it was leaking on the box joint.
I guessed the TD4 was also possible.

andyfreelandy said:

Closer exam on the old one shows piston defects, can't see a crack with naked eye but will think of a way to magnify the old eyeballs.

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The piston cracks are almost invisible until there's pressure applied, at which point they open and bleed the pressure down.
In the replacement drum I got, the piston had visibly split, and the clutch plates were quite burnt, so I didn't waste my time doing the job, especially as the FL2 came along.