starter problem

Ok... so if I change the solenoid to 12? Should work but might reduce the working life of starter and solenoid? Electrics give me a headache....

On my 84 series 3 diesel (now 200di) the solenoid comes with starter as on pic the 200di starter fits the series 3 too

A 12v starter will come with a 12v solenoid. when you turn the key to activate the starter I think I am right in saying that a 24v system will still be suppling 24v to the solenoid.

Mine looks like this... Solenoid is on the bulkhead. ( petrol )


I took it to the local auto spark to let them see if it's fixable. The 12 volt version is a lot cheaper and readily available. If I stick a 12v starter and solenoid in what happens .. will it explode, melt or work?

Laurie Bonesetter said:

No life on a bench test.

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This needs a little bit of clarification.
Do you mean no life i.e. sound at all? Or does the solenoid click but the motor doesn't drive the pinion?
There are contacts in the solenoid and brushes on the motor which might just need changing.

Have you got a quote from a starter/alternator rebuild specialist? They are usually quite a bit cheaper than a new unit.
As for running a 12v motor with 24 volts, I knew a chap who used to take a 24v lorry battery with him whenever he went to pick up a car that had been standing a long time. (This was a few years ago, in the days pre electronic ignition, OBD-whatever). He reckoned it didn't do it any harm just to use it to get the car to start!
Logically, if you apply 24 volts to a 12 volt motor, the extra wattage will maifest itself as bigger sparks at the contacts and the motor spinning faster and harder than normal. It might be OK for a while. You could possibly reduce the current to the motor by wiring a fu ck off big resistor in series with the motor, but I am very much an old skool mechanic when it comes to electrics. Others will probably jump in and correct me if I am wrong.
But according to this, unless your starter is a permanent magnet type, you should be ok in the short term, but it isn't a long term solution.
https://www.quora.com/Can-I-run-a-12-volt-starter-motor-with-a-24-volt-lead-acid-battery

Stanleysteamer said:

This needs a little bit of clarification.
Do you mean no life i.e. sound at all? Or does the solenoid click but the motor doesn't drive the pinion?
There are contacts in the solenoid and brushes on the motor which might just need changing.

Have you got a quote from a starter/alternator rebuild specialist? They are usually quite a bit cheaper than a new unit.
As for running a 12v motor with 24 volts, I knew a chap who used to take a 24v lorry battery with him whenever he went to pick up a car that had been standing a long time. (This was a few years ago, in the days pre electronic ignition, OBD-whatever). He reckoned it didn't do it any harm just to use it to get the car to start!
Logically, if you apply 24 volts to a 12 volt motor, the extra wattage will maifest itself as bigger sparks at the contacts and the motor spinning faster and harder than normal. It might be OK for a while. You could possibly reduce the current to the motor by wiring a fu ck off big resistor in series with the motor, but I am very much an old skool mechanic when it comes to electrics. Others will probably jump in and correct me if I am wrong.
But according to this, unless your starter is a permanent magnet type, you should be ok in the short term, but it isn't a long term solution.
https://www.quora.com/Can-I-run-a-12-volt-starter-motor-with-a-24-volt-lead-acid-battery

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Well the soleniod was clicking.... and sending power to the starter ok. I tested it with a voltage reader. At one point smoke appeared ( coming from positive terminal on the starter. No movement at all from the starter. I'm waiting for the quote fingers crossed it's

....not too bad.

worth taking apart to see if anything obvious

If it turns out the quote is too high I might be tempted to have a go... I'm pretty good at taking things apart, putting them back together is a different matter. That's like the stuff my science teacher used to make me write in detention,,, minus the pictures.

removed as it is for a more modern conventional starter!

This is a picture of an inertia starter. Not seen much nowadays! What you call a solenoid I think is actually a relay. This type of starter is far more mechanical than a more modern type which relies on electrical current to do more than just turn a motor.
These starters work by the fact there is a very long sort of rifling on the armature. When the power gets to the starter, it spins and due to the weight of the pinion it spins down the shaft and eventually enters into mesh with the starter ring gear, at that point the pinion reacts to the turning power of the motor and turns the flywheel. see https://www.howacarworks.com/basics/how-the-starting-system-works
If power is getting to the starter but it is not spinning then I think you'll find the brush(es) or spring(s) are jamming the motor and preventing it turning, or one is connected OK and the other is not, i.e. broken or the spring is broken and not pushing it into contact with the commutator. Or a lead to a brush has come off. apart from that a bearing would have to be seized I think.
Sticking my neck out a bit here but I have worked on inertia starters before. They can also stick and this may be why yours stuck and you had to rock the vehicle to free it. Again this is common, the "rifling" as I call it needs cleaning up.
Mine is on a Morris Marina based Kit car! Donor dates to 1972!
On others (pre-engaged) there is a solenoid piggy-backed onto the starter. The currrent gets to the solenoid which becomes an electromagnet and "sucks" a bar towards a pair of heavy duty contacts. They also usually flick the pinion into mesh with the ring gear, but not always maybe! Once the contacts are made, current flows round the motor and drives the pinion.

Laurie Bonesetter said:

Mine looks like this... Solenoid is on the bulkhead. ( petrol )

I took it to the local auto spark to let them see if it's fixable. The 12 volt version is a lot cheaper and readily available. If I stick a 12v starter and solenoid in what happens .. will it explode, melt or work?

Click to expand...

SEarhc you tube then take it apart CAREFULLY. Don't try to getthe solenoid apart yet or take the starer staror or armature out. There's a very good chance you just need to get to the brushes and to make sure the sloenoind (I'm assuming its pre-engaged) moves freely. When you get the end cover off leave the wires connected. Clean all the connections and look for burning / melting around the brush holders. Clean the commutator. These things are realy tough and over engineered compared to modern ones so there's a good chance its fixable. I see there are inertia and pre-engaged listed but nothing under £250 so its worth a poke about.

rob1miles said:

SEarhc you tube then take it apart CAREFULLY. Don't try to getthe solenoid apart yet or take the starer staror or armature out. There's a very good chance you just need to get to the brushes and to make sure the sloenoind (I'm assuming its pre-engaged) moves freely. When you get the end cover off leave the wires connected. Clean all the connections and look for burning / melting around the brush holders. Clean the commutator. These things are realy tough and over engineered compared to modern ones so there's a good chance its fixable. I see there are inertia and pre-engaged listed but nothing under £250 so its worth a poke about.

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Judging by his pic it is an inertia.

The only certainty is that a replacment will cost a lot!

I'll find out tomorrow re price to fix.
Can anybody clarify what a surcharge is?

24 Volt Starter Motor (Petrol) Recon 250.00 Surcharge Applies on Return Of Old Unit......from Craddocks.

That sounds like they will charge you more money if the starter you return is totally shagged and cannot be repaired at all
Best fiddle a bit with old , plenty of help on here if you get stuck

Oh well... I'll check with the autospark tomorrow.... fingers crossed.

most of the parts are relatively cheap compared to the whole unit so its worth a try fixing it.

Surcharge is usually applied if you do not return your old unit for them to repair or if it is damaged beyond repair [usually visible external damage].

Laurie Bonesetter said:

I'll find out tomorrow re price to fix.
Can anybody clarify what a surcharge is?

24 Volt Starter Motor (Petrol) Recon 250.00 Surcharge Applies on Return Of Old Unit......from Craddocks.

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One here on ebay:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rov...175723?hash=item1f0fddbaeb:g:oqUAAOSw~G5dQBWp