Classic RR Classic - 3.9 V8 Mechanical pre purchase checks

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sjr202

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Hi All
Im off to see a 1991 RR Classic at the weekend, I've watched multiple youtube videos and websites about how to check for rust but not much out there on key / basic checks before buying from a mechanical point of view. I've got a Disco 2 at the moment so know a bit about the things to look for from oil seals / transmission shunt / steering etc etc but not so much specifically about the 3.9 RRC.
I'll have some ramps and basic tools with me but wont be dismantling things on someone else's driveway! I've read about checking for tappety noise on start up being a potential big issue, but not a lot else...
know you will have a load of advice and suggestions, thanks in advance :)

Simon
 
RUST.
Diff pans - rust.
Shock turrets - more rust.
Brake pipes - rust.

ABS make sure it works.
Wheel bearings.
Swivel pre-load.
Steering damper.
Ignition system.
Cooling system - open the pressure cap and see if there is evidence of stop leak additives. Check the radiator, any snail trails indicates a new radiator or a recore is needed. Make sure it doesn't overheat.
Check the viscous coupling on the transfer box is good.
Check prop shaft UJ's.
Check transfer box output bearings for play - the front one does have a small amount of wiggle in it so be careful.
Check the engine idles smoothly. Rev it - revs should rise quickly and smoothly then settle back to a nice idle.
Check battery, check alternator output.
Check cruise control (if fitted).
Check power steering pump for leaks and check steering gear for worn joints.
Check the aircon if fitted.
Did I forget check for rust.
Check the electric stuff works - seats, windows, sunroof, mirrors.
Check the heater works, check the blower works on all speed settings.
Check the doors for rust by the hinges and around the puddle lights. Check the puddle lights actually work.
Rust
Rust
Rust

Hope that gives you a few pointers.
 
Kev, thank you so much for that list, I feel you're trying to tell me something... ;-) honestly thats brilliant, pretty sure I can check most of that myself which is a bonus, good to know what the engine/revs should be like, sounds simple but when you're new to an engine you dont know what to expect and what is ok vs a problem.

Ratae, thanks also, I intend to lift the carpets, know there will be some rust, hopefully surface and not crusty pieces of metal
 
No problem.

BTW on engine pick up, it will bog slightly if you yank the throttle open but then rev quickly - this is normal but on the road and under load it should pull strongly with no misfires, stutters or hesitation. If you want a giggle, manually shift the gears, you can hold it on the cam and feel the engine working. Mid range in 3rd is good fun, you'll be surprised how well the old bus can dance, blip throttle on downshift in to 2nd at about 40mph then floor it - fantastic with a nice exhaust. Gear changes should be relatively smooth, any bangs and hesitation/flaring could suggest a gearbox problem but I found the auto box reliable and capable of taking a beating.
 
Also :
Check that the transfer box lever will shift between hi & lo ... you may have to briefly engage D then back to N (engine running) to accomplish this. Many RRC's are never used in low 'box & if the lever is seized you may get away with spray lube around the shaft (going into the T 'box) but if it's really solid you could be looking at a strip down.
The Viscous Coupling can also seize, as suggested, so drive the car on full lock & feel/listen for the front tyres scrabbling. If in doubt jack one front wheel clear of the ground, transmission in N, handbrake fully on & try to turn that wheel ... it should turn with a fair amount of effort on your behalf. If it won't move, beyond the usual bit of slack, the VC is seized, if the wheel just spins there is a problem.
Take a pencil-beam torch (not a normal flashlight, this is important) & shine the beam into the engine oil filler hole to illuminate a couple of the rockers/valve springs ... gold colour is ace, brown is ok, black means walk away.
Also check that the viscous cooling fan is not seized.
One last thing, start the engine & listen to it. If you hear a metallic tapping at piston speed that only becomes audible as the lump starts to warm up the chances are you have a liner moving ... again walk away.
Good luck, but remember there are plenty of average RRC's on the market (& a lot of crap, whereas really good ones are like rocking horse sh..) so don't rush into ownership ... try to take someone knowledgeable with you when you view.
 
Kev, Norseman - some invaluable advice there thank you. Those are perfect bit of info that are crucial to know whether there is a big bill looming or a world of pain and misery. I dont expect it to be 'like new' but I dont want engine rebuilds and strip downs of expensive parts anytime soon :)

For "Take a pencil-beam torch (not a normal flashlight, this is important) & shine the beam into the engine oil filler hole to illuminate a couple of the rockers/valve springs ... gold colour is ace, brown is ok, black means walk away." - what do the brown and black colours signify as an issue?

I will add all above to my checklist Im taking - will let you know how tomorrow goes. Thanks again!!
 
Black can be a build up of burnt carbony oil deposits & often indicate a vehicle that has had infrequent oil & filter changes.
These engines do best on frequent regular oil change - mine gets done (DIY) at around 3k intervals. Buy oil in 25lt drums (cheaper than 5lt) & use good quality filters.

A bit of good advice from 'V8 wizards' (RPi engineering) website:
V8Wizard
Take a good look inside even if only through the oil filler hole.
Oh, and you will need a torch, a Penlight is best.
A good look inside the rocker covers through the oil hole will help you to determine the internal condition (and the minimum parts you will need for a successful job).

If your are unsure, it will fall into one of the following categories.

  • Silver Alloy surfaces? In this condition it should be like a new engine.
  • Light brown tarnished? Probably very low mileage and well cared for.
  • Darker brown tarnish? Perhaps high mileage but still well cared for.
  • Black? Getting poor, a full rebuild/replacement should be considered.
  • Black Coated & becoming dense? Very poor condition, A rebuild is normally required
  • Black and very sludgy? Dead on its feet
They also have some photos here which show the sort of build up you don't want to see:
V8Wizard
 
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The pic with the sheared inlet manifold bolt is the same manifold bolt that sheared on mine when I did a top end rebuild a few years ago so I wonder if that's a common issue.
I do have a fair range of tools incl mig but as I was taking the heads off anyway I took it to a local engine reconditioners who did it using one of the straight fluted extractors.
 
[GALLERY=][/GALLERY]

hi chaps
looking over the car now. Photo down inside the oil filler. Looks a light brown / goldenish with some mid brown areas.
Hopefully photos shows it
 

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On warm tick over there is a light tapping noise. Not a slapping or loud noise but a noticeable ticking. Could it be a cylinder liner?
 
Visible colour looks OK.

Could be a number of things.
Liner being just one.
Any trace of oil/mayo in the header tank? (Not the oil filler cap, mayo in that cap isn't unusual in vehicles that haven't been used for other than short distances & the water generated by burning petrol will condense inside the engine. Engine doesn't get hot enough to boil it off & mayo is the result.)

Probably the most common would be a worn cam follower - although a blowing exhaust manifold can sound exactly like a worn follower.
These old technology engines aren't really suited to modern synthetic oils, a good quality mineral being best. Mine's on 15/40 mineral.
Sometimes on a tappy engine using mineral 20/50 will shut it up (worn cam/followers only, not a liner!)
What's the mileage? Frequently said that 80k-ish is about the life expectancy of the cam before wear starts to make itself noticed.
Not difficult to DIY cam & followers & is done with engine in situ.

But as always, if in doubt walk away.

ETA There's a section on the V8 wizard that talks about it but whether that's a gold plated guaranteed sure-fire diagnosis I don't know.
V8Wizard
 
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sjr202 said:
For "Take a pencil-beam torch (not a normal flashlight, this is important) & shine the beam into the engine oil filler hole to illuminate a couple of the rockers/valve springs ... gold colour is ace, brown is ok, black means walk away." - what do the brown and black colours signify as an issue?
Click to expand...

As per Ratae's answer.

As to your 'light tapping sound' if this is at piston speed as opposed to camshaft (which is half of the former) it's quite probably a liner, which in reality means a replacement block.
All bore sizes of the RV8, with the exception of the 3.5ltr. are prone to liner slippage, especially (wait for the howls of protest from some LPG users) when the engine has been converted to run on LPG ... this is due to increased combustion chamber temperature caused by the gas & can be exacerbated by a less than perfect cooling system.
 
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Hi All
I wanted to thank you all for taking the time with the guidance and help you have put on here, as a RRC newbie you cant imagine how reassuring and valuable you're comments have been. One of the reasons I love Land Rovers is the community around them and we all help each other through the ups and downs :)

I've decided to leave this RRC sadly, it was disappointing to make the decision and taking time to think about it with head not heart helped. There was water ingress into the footwells and chasing water leaks isnt any fun at all, I also need it to live outside until I find suitable shelter for it! The engine tapping I sent a video to my mate who has had RRCs and he thought it was a little noisy, again based on above then I thought it wasnt worth the risk, at 98k miles the cam is a very likely suspect but liklihood of liner isnt ideal.

The upside is I fell in love with the RRC once I drove it, I love the looks, but the engine noise and character of the whole things was everything I hoped, people waved, smiled and one old chap even dothed his cap! :)

I'll keep looking, thanks for your help and sure I'll be back next time to pick your brains.
 
You are more than welcome to whatever advice I can give. Unlike many on this forum I haven't done my own 'spannering' for a long time, but 20 years ownership of four RRC's & the problems they can present gives me the confidence to advise others. Just because I don't get down & dirty doesn't mean I don't know what makes them work.

nb: for example, ask me how I know about slipped liners :rolleyes:
 
Thank you for letting us know.
There'll be one out there somewhere for you!

Just to pick up on the water ingress, whilst it could be leaking in from above a very common reason for water into footwells in all makes is the door weathersheets being damaged or missing.
These are the plastic sheets glued to the door frame that you see if you take the door cards off. Their purpose is to keep the water that passes the waist seals (top of the doors & against the windows) inside the door so it will go down to & out of the drain holes in the bottom of the door.
If damaged/missing the water can drip onto the back of the door cards & run down & drip off the bottom into the car. On my own RRC they were missing altogether & after a good downpour I could have kept fish in the footwells - although on the positive side it did prove I hadn't got any rust holes in the floors as it didn't drain out.....
Often stuck on with butyl rubber strip - think 'very sticky plasticine'.
 
Thanks again! :)

Yes there was a just a 'spot' of rust in the footwells ;-) , and pretty much the only place on the car but it was quite bad.

Thats very interesting about the watersheets, I'll keep that in mind and check (if a future seller allows) behind the cards, but as you suggest, trial and error until you find the root cause(s) and then have to resolve it all.

Have a good week
 
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