Freelander 2 (LR2) Trouble Diagnosing Drivetrain Issue

Hi all, and thank you for approving my registration to your forums.

I have a perplexing (to me) issue, and thought this would be a great forum to ask about it. One reason is because of Nodge68, and the excellent post, with pictures, about replacing the Haldex/Diff unit: https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/fl2-rear-diff-seizure.366167/page-3

So first of all, thanks for that. I have a 2009 LR2, with 182k miles on it. It is the automatic, with the gas engine. Here is the issue, and what I have done so far:

1) I was pulling away from a light, gently, and my LR2 suddenly ground to a halt. No warning, no noises beforehand. I could not drive forward, but could go slowly in reverse... I had to, to get off a busy bridge. I was able to pull in a parking lot, then get flat-bedded home.

2) The rear left axle had sheared off inboard of the clip groove. At first I blamed this on the cheap, $75 Chinese axle I had put in two years before, but when I installed a good junkyard axle, the car was still locked up going forward. It would creep a bit in reverse, still. So, that was not the problem, but a symptom... clearly it snapped because the drivetrain froze.

3) So I began to look for the source of the seizure. Jacking up the each side of the rear, I could still turn the rear wheels. So I thought the seized part might still be the pinion, if the cage was destroyed... or whatever... but figured now it may be my transfer case at the front. Anyway, I was not about to assume anything, I needed to know for sure. So I began removing the rear driveshaft flange to Haldex joint, because, of course, if the car was free to move, the problem was the diff. If it would not move after disconnect, the problem was at the front.

4) But it was stuck. Really stuck. As Nodge68 suggested, I tried tapping it out from that hole in the back... but couldn't get a good swing on my drift, etc. Crazy as it would be to do, I felt I needed to take the damn thing out... and I did, today. Lowering it allowed me to tap off the driveshaft flange.

5) Backing up a bit here: While the diff was still connected, I could drive forward maybe two feet, but in reverse as much as I wanted. I mean, I was still stuck. I could not turn the driveshaft, even in neutral. But I didn't know, could not tell, if it was stuck at the front or the back!

6) So today, as I wrote, I dropped the diff. Now that I could turn the input flange, I was like... DAMN!... it turned freely, and rotated the cage inside, and the axle splines (of course). I mean, now I realized I had done all that work for one simple diagnosis: The seizure was at the FRONT of my car somewhere: Trans, diff, transfer case. Ouch.

7) BUT not so fast! Here is the conundrum: I wired up the exhaust and right rear axle, dropped the LR2 again, and tried to move forward. Stuck, as expected. Just as before: Hardly forward... all jerky and stuck... but I could go in reverse. I tried several times, and was JUST about to stop, order a transfer case, cry a bit, have a couple of beers or more, and take the rest of my truck apart. With a big hammer. But just for jollies, I tried a couple more times... back, forward, back, forward... then "clunk" (sort of), and I could drive forward, NO problem! And reverse, fine. Many times... it was like there was no problem at all. Well, at least, in the driveway, in first.

8) I tested to see if the transmission's "park" pawl was the culprit (not that I thought it would be, but to eliminate that possible). I went to the top of my driveway where it is slanted, and I would roll back in neutral, but park would hold me. So that seems fine.

So here is where I'm at. I'm thinking several things: The transfer case or front differential IS the culprit, and it was only coincidentally freed after a few tries after taking out the diff. Maybe a gear tooth, or other part, was broken loose in there, and was jamming it? Then, it came loose, freeing it again?

I think... so far... that my best course would be to buy a transfer case, and install it. I was thinking about using the car as a two wheel drive, when I suspected the Haldex/Diff unit, by removing the RR axle, and disconnecting the driveshaft from the front. Then I could even pick up my replacement diff without borrowing my wife's Jeep, and so on.

But with that initial frozen state after taking out the diff, I would NEVER do this. I would expect it would probably seize up front again, and take out a bunch of stuff, and my right foot, and also, far from home and any hospital.

What are your thoughts on all this? Has anyone experienced a "temporarily" frozen transfer case? Has anyone seen an LR2 seize up like this, for anything other than the common diff/pinion issues? Has anyone seen or heard of a rear axle being broken by something at the front of the truck seizing, while somehow NOT breaking the driveshaft joints, first?

I've been working on all my own cars and trucks for over a half a century, and of course ran into some perplexing problems. But this one seems so simple... that is should be simple to pin down... but it has been a big can of worms. Any help or advice is appreciated, before I buy some big part I don't need, or take more stuff apart that I don't have to. Thanks, Rich.

Hi Rich, welcome to the forum and what a great first post

That was a really interesting read. I hope your F2 continues to fail in strange ways so you can keep us entertained.

I'm not highly knowledgeable on the F2, having only owned one for a couple of weeks, joining the F1 I've had for many many years and been through very similar puzzles such as yours with that

But, yes, it does very much sound like something is up with the PTU (transferish box/front diff). I feel confident that someone should be able to pin point more accurately where a fault may lie given it was locked in forward direction but would move, all-be-it complaining, in reverse.

Ultimately though, it may be a case of replacing the PTU and not worrying to much about the exact cause. Having said that, its probably best to take the PTU off to make sure the splines it connects to on the gearbox are in decent condition (these may be the cause of your problem). Mind you, maybe its the box. Think you need someone with more experience to join the thread!

GrumpyGel said:

Ultimately though, it may be a case of replacing the PTU and not worrying to much about the exact cause. Having said that, its probably best to take the PTU off to make sure the splines it connects to on the gearbox are in decent condition (these may be the cause of your problem). Mind you, maybe its the box. Think you need someone with more experience to join the thread!

Click to expand...

Hi Grumpy! All true, and as the "smoke clears", it seems more like this is the proper path for me. If I replace it, at worst it will be about a $350/one day mistake (PTU's are luckily far less expensive than the diff units). If I don't, then whatever happened up there is sure to happen again. It would be like driving a ticking time bomb.

Well, unless someone sees this nightmare, and says, "NO! That's the blah blah blah...". We will see. It seems I'll be riding my motorcycle for a few days, anyway, because I won't be getting back to this until later in the week. If I don't have an alternate theory by then, I'll pick up a PTU.

Thanks, Rich.

proto57 said:

Hi Grumpy! All true, and as the "smoke clears", it seems more like this is the proper path for me. If I replace it, at worst it will be about a $350/one day mistake (PTU's are luckily far less expensive than the diff units). If I don't, then whatever happened up there is sure to happen again. It would be like driving a ticking time bomb.

Well, unless someone sees this nightmare, and says, "NO! That's the blah blah blah...". We will see. It seems I'll be riding my motorcycle for a few days, anyway, because I won't be getting back to this until later in the week. If I don't have an alternate theory by then, I'll pick up a PTU.

Thanks, Rich.

Click to expand...

On the bright side, the weather is presumably getting better there now, so a good time to ride the motorbike!

Actually, thinking about my train of thought as I finished my post... I'm not sure how a purely mechanical device like the PTU could give resistance in reverse. I can easily see how it could jam going forward, but you'd think it would also jam in reverse, or maybe be free, but not give resistance.

That sort of behaviour could be more easily imagined in something using fluid mechanics.... such as the auto gearbox.

Have you had a code reader on it and done some diagnostics? Would be interesting to see if there's any strange behaviour reported in the box.

If the rear diff is free and silent in operation, then it must be the PTU.

The only allowing rotation in one direction is something that can happen to worn taper roller bearings. As the bearings wear and the cage begins to allow the rollers to move about. This can result in the bearing rollers running under the cage, which effectively turns them into a one way clutch. There are actually bearings available that are specifically ground to operate like that, known as a Sprag bearing or Sprag clutch. Obviously you don't want a Sprag in the drive line of a vehicle, but that's the likely cause for the issue.
How often has the oil been changed in the PTU?

Nodge68 said:

If the rear diff is free and silent in operation, then it must be the PTU.

The only allowing rotation in one direction is something that can happen to worn taper roller bearings. As the bearings wear and the cage begins to allow the rollers to move about. This can result in the bearing rollers running under the cage, which effectively turns them into a one way clutch. There are actually bearings available that are specifically ground to operate like that, known as a Sprag bearing or Sprag clutch. Obviously you don't want a Sprag in the drive line of a vehicle, but that's the likely cause for the issue.
How often has the oil been changed in the PTU?

Click to expand...

Thanks much, Nodge! Everything you say makes perfect sense, and certainly fits what has happened, and what I have observed.

I confess that this is of course my own fault, as I did neglect the PTU. Nobody gets away with this, and I am no exception. I did renew the diff oil two years ago... how I "spaced" the PTU service will haunt me (along with taking out the differential for nothing). But I'll make lemonade from these lemons... I've finally started to rust a bit back there, so I'll use the access to use my air chipper and wire brush, and undercoat everything before putting it back together. And I have a new set of catalytic exhaust manifolds, so maybe while under the front, I'll do those, too.

I appreciate the input. I'll drop a note if I have other questions, and let everyone know how it goes... for the record. All the best, Rich.

A small update, for anyone who might be curious: I've been working on my LR2 for the last week or so, but bad weather slowed me down a bit. Nonetheless I did pick up a transfer case, and today finally took out the old one.

I got a great deal on the "new" PTU. It was in a junkyard an hour and twenty minutes from me. For some reason, they only wanted $125 for it... maybe because it has a whopping 198k miles on it? I would have paid more for one with less miles, but the few that were listed for between about $250 and $600, on eBay, could not tell me the miles of the donor car, nor would they let me come pick it up myself. That all seemed fishy... and I realized that A LOT of the sellers of used car parts are a kind of "drop shipper", as we find with many new part vendors. It seems they use the various wrecking yard data bases, and never see the part, themselves. Two were in towns in Texas, while the transfer cases they were selling were from Stamford, Connecticut, and Brooklyn!

They all have bad reviews, selling several bad parts each... including transmissions and engines. So I decided I would go straight to the junkyards, like the old days. I soon found the one in Connecticut, on their own online database, and they quoted me only $125. That was last Wednesday, and they promised to have it out by 2:00pm Friday. So I borrowed my wife's (Cathy's) Jeep Wrangler, and got there by 1:45. Nope, they could not have it out, the guy hurt himself, and all that. I was nice, but told them I was an hour and half away, and was there ANY way they could still take it out? So they reluctantly agreed, and I wandered a local park until then. They had it out, and on the counter, when I returned. BUT it was frozen solid! Nobody checked it! We all tried turning the output by hand, and it would not budge. Some really nice looking oil leaked out the axle holes... no metal flakes, not burnt, and no rust or water. It made no sense.

The guy tried opening the side, but it was stuck. It think they use an O-ring in there. Anyway, he was really apologetic about the wait, and the bad part. So I offered him $30 for it... that it might pay for the time to remove it, and that I was willing to take the risk I could do something with it... rebuild it, or whatever. Use it as a core for a rebuilt, or like that. He jumped at that...

When I got home, I put a pipe wrench on the output shaft. Before I could even turn it, it turned by itself with only the weight of the handle! Then it turned easily by hand... no backlash that I could sense, no "rumble" from the gears. It seems fine. I think it was just stuck from light rust on the seal surface, IDK.

ANYWAY, not that anyone read that far, but in case it was informative or of interest. So as to the old PTU? I tipped it over on cardboard, and as you can see, only dirty water came out:

My guess as to how water got in there is easily explained by the launch site I use for my boat, when it is high tide:



It's been much higher than that, with water coming in when I opened the door. Maybe water came in through a seal? The vent tube was attached, so who knows? Anyway, what failed? I guess the pinion gear... you can see the output shaft is cocked at an angle:



This thing is FROZEN solid. I have no idea how I ever crept backwards with the car... unless.. just a guess... the transfer case is not engaged in reverse? I would have thought one had four wheel drive in reverse, but maybe not?

Anyway, I'm taking the opportunity to put in my new set of exhaust manifold/cats, which will be much easier now that the transfer case is out of the way. I have all the proper oils for the front and back, and 12 new bolts for the driveshaft (I had to cut one, and they were so tight the heads were pretty messed up on a couple). I hope to do that all next Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, too, if I need it.

Rich.

Season 1 Episode 2 is just as enthralling

Lovely looking F2. Same can't be said for that pinion on the PTU, that's extremely catastrophic.

It would be sad if a Land Rover is crippled by launching a boat. I wonder if the hot PTU being submerged in the water, cooling it quickly, has sucked in water.

That boat ramp looks a bit wonky. The front wheels look to be in deeper than the rears.

Wow you should not really be putting the FL2 in that depth of water, so it can let water in when you open the doors?

GrumpyGel said:

Season 1 Episode 2 is just as enthralling

Lovely looking F2. Same can't be said for that pinion on the PTU, that's extremely catastrophic.

It would be sad if a Land Rover is crippled by launching a boat. I wonder if the hot PTU being submerged in the water, cooling it quickly, has sucked in water.

That boat ramp looks a bit wonky. The front wheels look to be in deeper than the rears.

Click to expand...

Thanks Grumpy... "enthralling" at this end, too! It really is "all good", as bad as it is. I've always loved working on cars... while fraught with inconvenience, cost, and sometimes blood and tears... there is still something satisfying about it. I've been working on cars since I tuned up the family MGB when I was 13, then bought a Model A Ford when I was 14. Lots of fun, but maybe lots of crying. I'm sure we all feel the same way, since I've come to realize that the used Land Rover world is filled with people who seem to just love machinery.

As for the catastrophic PTU I agree... I'm not sure I've personally encountered anything like it before*. After posting the update, I thought about it and think it explains the sudden "freeing up" of the driveline: The pinion was pushed to the side by deforming the aluminum housing, maybe stripping a few teeth, too: That allowed the crown gear to move freely in there, and this is why I could suddenly move in the driveway. I'd love to see in there.

The ramp is notoriously badly designed: They seem to not have taken into account the higher tides at all. There are plans to raise a large area of the park, including the top of the ramp, and this may cost over $16 million dollars.

As for it being sad if launching a boat "crippled" my LR2, I agree, and I like your theory of the cooling helping to "suck in" the water. And making it worse, however it got in there, is that the water in Peekskill is brackish... slightly salty. The "wading depth" of the LR2 is supposed to be 19.7 inches (I looked it up, I just normally remember it as "20" when in these situations). But after 100K or so? Warmed from towing, then cooled by the water as you say? Who knows, but probably. A good warning at least.

I'm checking the tide from now on, or not using this ramp any longer.

* similar, though, to the time (in the 1970's) my front U-Joint failed in my 1940 Chevy, and it took out the cast iron at the back of the transmission. They had a sort of "hemisphere" of iron around the joint, as they had a torque tube.

Arctic2 said:

Wow you should not really be putting the FL2 in that depth of water, so it can let water in when you open the doors?

Click to expand...

Well as I said to Grumpy, the rated depth of immersion for the LR2 is about 20 inches. The sills on my LR2 are about 21 to 21.5 inches off the ground, so when the water came in last fall, I was pushing it past the rated height. But even at the 20" mark, the Haldex/Diff, driveshaft, starter motor, all wheel bearings, axles, brakes, wheel bearings, and transfer case are all or partly submerged. And they supposedly designed it for this, it is in the manual. The vent tubes on the top of the transfer case and diff are presumably to avoid water intrusion. I can't speak for the starter motor though... but it has a drain!

Anyway, they don't specify what brand of water, and I often launch into the Hudson river... which is brackish (salty) at most of the ramps I use. In fact when I posted that picture, I was yelled at on a Facebook Land Rover forum for doing it. I explained about the rated depth and all that, in response, as I did here. Then about a year after I first did it, both my rear (sealed, but?) wheel bearing fried! And now this.

And brackish, salty, or fresh water, not a good idea to replace your PTU oil with it.

So you are probably right: Yes these are rated for some degree of immersion. BUT it is probably not a good idea to do it. I assumed too much, trusted to much, that it would be OK. I don't think it is at all, and won't do it again.

proto57 said:

Well as I said to Grumpy, the rated depth of immersion for the LR2 is about 20 inches. The sills on my LR2 are about 21 to 21.5 inches off the ground, so when the water came in last fall, I was pushing it past the rated height. But even at the 20" mark, the Haldex/Diff, driveshaft, starter motor, all wheel bearings, axles, brakes, wheel bearings, and transfer case are all or partly submerged. And they supposedly designed it for this, it is in the manual. The vent tubes on the top of the transfer case and diff are presumably to avoid water intrusion. I can't speak for the starter motor though... but it has a drain!

Anyway, they don't specify what brand of water, and I often launch into the Hudson river... which is brackish (salty) at most of the ramps I use. In fact when I posted that picture, I was yelled at on a Facebook Land Rover forum for doing it. I explained about the rated depth and all that, in response, as I did here. Then about a year after I first did it, both my rear (sealed, but?) wheel bearing fried! And now this.

And brackish, salty, or fresh water, not a good idea to replace your PTU oil with it.

So you are probably right: Yes these are rated for some degree of immersion. BUT it is probably not a good idea to do it. I assumed too much, trusted to much, that it would be OK. I don't think it is at all, and won't do it again.

Click to expand...

The rated wading depth is with the vehicle moving, not stationery, there is a difference in how the water effects the vehicle when standing still in water.
The unofficial rule is half the official wading depth for a stationery vehicle, so about 10 inches for the FL2.
The reason for adifference is that when moving, the vehicle pushes water out the way, creating a low trough in the water where the main body of the vehicle is. This trough disappears when stationery, so the water goes much higher than it was ever designed.
Also items like wheel bearings, ball joints, and drive line components are cooled by water, which if submerged will draw in that water through the seals, resulting in rapid failure.

Also salt water will rot out the body, which presumably you already know living in the rust belt?

proto57 said:

Thanks Grumpy... "enthralling" at this end, too! It really is "all good", as bad as it is. I've always loved working on cars... while fraught with inconvenience, cost, and sometimes blood and tears... there is still something satisfying about it. I've been working on cars since I tuned up the family MGB when I was 13, then bought a Model A Ford when I was 14. Lots of fun, but maybe lots of crying. I'm sure we all feel the same way, since I've come to realize that the used Land Rover world is filled with people who seem to just love machinery.

As for the catastrophic PTU I agree... I'm not sure I've personally encountered anything like it before*. After posting the update, I thought about it and think it explains the sudden "freeing up" of the driveline: The pinion was pushed to the side by deforming the aluminum housing, maybe stripping a few teeth, too: That allowed the crown gear to move freely in there, and this is why I could suddenly move in the driveway. I'd love to see in there.

The ramp is notoriously badly designed: They seem to not have taken into account the higher tides at all. There are plans to raise a large area of the park, including the top of the ramp, and this may cost over $16 million dollars.

As for it being sad if launching a boat "crippled" my LR2, I agree, and I like your theory of the cooling helping to "suck in" the water. And making it worse, however it got in there, is that the water in Peekskill is brackish... slightly salty. The "wading depth" of the LR2 is supposed to be 19.7 inches (I looked it up, I just normally remember it as "20" when in these situations). But after 100K or so? Warmed from towing, then cooled by the water as you say? Who knows, but probably. A good warning at least.

I'm checking the tide from now on, or not using this ramp any longer.

* similar, though, to the time (in the 1970's) my front U-Joint failed in my 1940 Chevy, and it took out the cast iron at the back of the transmission. They had a sort of "hemisphere" of iron around the joint, as they had a torque tube.

Click to expand...

A Land Rover must be your perfect vehicle then if you like working on cars

Its been a while since we had a boat, but I just looked back at some pics and it does look like the ramp you use is pretty bad! This is launching at Waikawa in the Marlborough Sounds..



Even dipping the back wheels into the drink, the rear (drum) brakes would seize up overnight on the campsite if the hand brake was left on. Only did that once!

GrumpyGel said:

A Land Rover must be your perfect vehicle then if you like working on cars

Its been a while since we had a boat, but I just looked back at some pics and it does look like the ramp you use is pretty bad! This is launching at Waikawa in the Marlborough Sounds..

View attachment 314380

Even dipping the back wheels into the drink, the rear (drum) brakes would seize up overnight on the campsite if the hand brake was left on. Only did that once!

Click to expand...

Looks like fun.

The FL2 parking brake will also seize if parked up wet (the roads were flooded). I had that issue this morning, after leaving the parking brake applied for a week while we were away. Pulling away made a sequence of bangs as the brakes pulled free.

Well for the sake of completeness, I wanted to give a wrap up on everything I did... I finished putting my LR2 back together on the 22nd of April, which was almost exactly a month after getting it towed into the driveway.

The reason it took so long was waiting to get parts, going to get parts, taking the diff out when it wasn't the problem, air chipping/wire brushing and undercoating all the places the no long blocked, rain, family visit for a week, lots and lots of rain, and two days of sanding down the new manifolds:



They really were a great deal.... the manifold cats were only about $240 for the pair (with manifold gaskets), and the downstream cats were $212 for the pair. The disadavantage is that they don't plane them a bit before sending them out. A blip on a big belt sander would be all they would have needed... while for me, it was tedious hours with sandpaper on a marble slab. Back and forth, back and forth... I assumed that the warpage is from welding heat. One was a bit over 40 thousands out, the other, about 20 thousandth. The picture above is after hours of sanding, but you can still see the low point that needs to be reached.

Both came from Canada. I worried that, at that price, that they didn't really have the necessary expensive metals in the catalyzer. But the codes went off right away... came back for two days with some sort of O2 sensor stuck voltage code or like that... but two days later the codes all went away again, and have not come back.

Another expense were the driveline bolts, about $80 for all twelve. Total for the job, with the cats, $30 transfer case, extra gaskets, bolts, proper oils for diff and transfer case, and the $105 axle, the whole job was maybe $750 at the most. I'll call that a win, as many of the diffs, and some of the transfer cases (but many used ones were only about $275 to $600) I was shopping for, were far more than my total. I was on the verge of buying one differential, in fact, and I was hoping he would accept an $800 offer... he wanted $1,000. Good thing I didn't need it.

My "shakedown" cruise was an hour and a half ride to New Jersey to pick up a used mower bed I needed. In fact, the morning before I left for the trip, I still had to install the left rear axle! But it went well, the LR2 runs fine, no vibrations in the driveline, nothing broke. So it seems I'm out of the woods... until the next "adventure".

Thanks again for all your help and advice. Much appreciated!

Rich

Great result, all-be-it with a lot of elbow grease and time invested. Well done

Having put that effort in, it makes it all the sweeter when you fire it up, drive off and all is running well.