Last Land-Rover for mere mortals?

On Tue, 23 May 2006 14:55:56 +0100, Ian Rawlings
<[email protected]> wrote:

>It can be dead useful, my plastic rocket uses a different but similar
>bus type, from that you can read off and log things like mass air
>temperature, barometric pressure, throttle position, injector duty
>cycle, exhaust Co2 content, knock sensor triggering etc and use it to
>diagnose engine complaints.

Can it be retro fitted to engines that have all the sensors and closed
loop gumph?

I'm having a lot of trouble finding an erratic engine miss as the
engine warms up and goes to closed loop running, fine from cold till
then.

AJH

Well I've read all the replies, and there's not a lot I can add - but heed
this - without Range Rover, Freelander and Discovery there would be no
Defender. As sure as eggs is eggs.

The people that ensure that the Defender is still produced are the ones that
go out and buy a new fangled "full of electrickery" modern Land Rover
vehicle. It is *not* the enthusuast that is trying to keep a 40 year old
vehicle on the road on a shoestring - what do Land Rover *actually* get from
that person ... certainly not anywhere near the type of custom they would
need - and don't give me the "heritage" line - you CANNOT run a businesss on
heritage....you need cash, investment - business acumen.

Just wait until Euro V affects us - it's already in place in some trucks....

Anyway .. er.... I'll put my soapbox away.

--
Neil Brownlee
Technical Director
PC Control Systems

On 2006-05-23, AJH <[email protected]> wrote:

> Can it be retro fitted to engines that have all the sensors and closed
> loop gumph?

That's the kind of engine that often already has a standard query bus
installed, have a google search for your car and "ecu diagnostics" and
see what comes up.

> I'm having a lot of trouble finding an erratic engine miss as the
> engine warms up and goes to closed loop running, fine from cold till
> then.

Try disconnecting the battery, it depends on the ECU but on mine, it
memorises fuel mixture data from when the engine is in closed-loop
mode, and when in open-loop mode it re-uses them. Pulling the ECU power
resets these to default values and it starts the learning process
again. It normally runs with less power initially though. I should
point out however that whether this will help or make the problem
worse depends on the ECU and how it's set up ;-)

If you can, get workshop manuals for the car, and make sure that the
manuals include the engine management data, some cars have a separate
manual for that. Mine has oodles of data including expected values
for sensors, trouble-shooting flowcharts etc.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

Neil Brownlee wrote:
> Well I've read all the replies, and there's not a lot I can add - but heed
> this - without Range Rover, Freelander and Discovery there would be no
> Defender. As sure as eggs is eggs.
>

Agreed, as I stated. But Defender (whilst it lasts) should be something
more simple. The market is there for a simpler vehicle for the African
and Indian markets.

> The people that ensure that the Defender is still produced are the ones that
> go out and buy a new fangled "full of electrickery" modern Land Rover
> vehicle. It is *not* the enthusuast that is trying to keep a 40 year old
> vehicle on the road on a shoestring - what do Land Rover *actually* get from
> that person ... certainly not anywhere near the type of custom they would
> need - and don't give me the "heritage" line - you CANNOT run a businesss on
> heritage....you need cash, investment - business acumen.
>

Yes, and Range Rover and Discovery are the vehicles which have made the
profit over the years (I don't know what Freelander does for the
company). But I usually buy genuine spares for my 110, and hence
maintain some kind of revenue for the company. And I bet more people
think "Land Rover" when they see a Defender shape than they do with the
others - that's called product awareness. Once they get into the
dealership, then they probably go for Disco, but they will associate
that vehicle with the legend (and heritage) that is Defender.

> Just wait until Euro V affects us - it's already in place in some trucks....
>

Er, dunno what Euro V is!

> Anyway .. er.... I'll put my soapbox away.
>

Maybe I'm just too untrusting of computers in vehicles...

Stuart

In message <[email protected]>
"Neil Brownlee" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Well I've read all the replies, and there's not a lot I can add - but heed
> this - without Range Rover, Freelander and Discovery there would be no
> Defender. As sure as eggs is eggs.
>
> The people that ensure that the Defender is still produced are the ones that
> go out and buy a new fangled "full of electrickery" modern Land Rover
> vehicle. It is *not* the enthusuast that is trying to keep a 40 year old
> vehicle on the road on a shoestring - what do Land Rover *actually* get from
> that person ... certainly not anywhere near the type of custom they would
> need - and don't give me the "heritage" line - you CANNOT run a businesss on
> heritage....you need cash, investment - business acumen.
>

But equally you cannot play the heritage card, as LR do big time,
without a product to back it up. The farce over the 50th Aniversary
showed that (Freelanders on a guided metal track at the ARC Nationals).

> Just wait until Euro V affects us - it's already in place in some trucks....

Just wait until some form of ban/tax regime on Chelsea Tractors and/or
big cars comes in - it will. The loop hole will be commerial use.

>
> Anyway .. er.... I'll put my soapbox away.
>

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay

On Tue, 23 May 2006 07:44:50 +0100, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On or around Tue, 23 May 2006 00:06:46 +0100, Alex
><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>
>>Um, Santana are still producing what is basically a Series III with a
>>2.8 TDi in it.
>
>yeah, but it's not a 2.8 TDi, it's an IVECO. There is a lot in south
>america producing the oversized TDi, but that's a different animal.
>

Since the Initials TDI stand for Turbo Diesel Injection, the moniker
TDI applies to all current diesel engines. Therefore the Iveco engine
is a 2.8 TDI. Landrover do not have a monopoly on the initials TDI.

>The IVECO is a damned good engine, used in trucks up to about 6 tons... but
>it's not a simple mechanical engine.

Mmm. Much nicer than the merc engine'd minibuses we have though.

Alex

Alex wrote:

|| On Tue, 23 May 2006 07:44:50 +0100, Austin Shackles
|| <[email protected]> wrote:
||
||| On or around Tue, 23 May 2006 00:06:46 +0100, Alex
||| <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
|||
||||
|||| Um, Santana are still producing what is basically a Series III
|||| with a
|||| 2.8 TDi in it.
|||
||| yeah, but it's not a 2.8 TDi, it's an IVECO. There is a lot in
||| south america producing the oversized TDi, but that's a different
||| animal.
|||
||
|| Since the Initials TDI stand for Turbo Diesel Injection,

Turbocharged Direct Injection.

|| the moniker
|| TDI applies to all current diesel engines.

No - only those with direct injection, I reckon, which is not all current
engines by any means.

|| Therefore the Iveco engine
|| is a 2.8 TDI.

Only by your definition.

|| Landrover do not have a monopoly on the initials TDI.

No, but the letters Tdi (in this NG at least) will be taken to apply to
engines made by Land Rover in the 200/300 Tdi series.

--
Rich
==============================

I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.

I must say Ford get nothing from me, however I got fed up with Ford when
they started hiking the prices on there back catalogue of spares, an obvios
ploy to get one to dump the old motor and buy a new one.

Anyway Ford can afford to build defenders easily enough without the rest of
the catalogue, is not as if any part of Landrover is there mainstay anyway

--
Larry
Series 3 rust and holes


"Neil Brownlee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Well I've read all the replies, and there's not a lot I can add - but heed
> this - without Range Rover, Freelander and Discovery there would be no
> Defender. As sure as eggs is eggs.
>
> The people that ensure that the Defender is still produced are the ones
that
> go out and buy a new fangled "full of electrickery" modern Land Rover
> vehicle. It is *not* the enthusuast that is trying to keep a 40 year old
> vehicle on the road on a shoestring - what do Land Rover *actually* get
from
> that person ... certainly not anywhere near the type of custom they would
> need - and don't give me the "heritage" line - you CANNOT run a businesss
on
> heritage....you need cash, investment - business acumen.
>
> Just wait until Euro V affects us - it's already in place in some
trucks....
>
> Anyway .. er.... I'll put my soapbox away.
>
> --
> Neil Brownlee
> Technical Director
> PC Control Systems
>
>

Larry wrote:
> I must say Ford get nothing from me, however I got fed up with Ford when
> they started hiking the prices on there back catalogue of spares, an obvios
> ploy to get one to dump the old motor and buy a new one.
>
> Anyway Ford can afford to build defenders easily enough without the rest of
> the catalogue, is not as if any part of Landrover is there mainstay anyway
>

Well, it's only the "luxury car" marques (Jaguar, Range Rover, Volvo,
Aston) that make any money for Ford. "Ford" cars just about break even.
It was the same for (old) Rover, British Leyland, Rover Group - only
the luxury model(s) (in those case, Jaguars and Land-Rover) which made
the money. Look at MG-Rover after the BMW sell-off: zero profit,
collapse. Without Land Rover and the like, Ford wouldn't survive.

Stuart

"Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Alex wrote:
>
> || On Tue, 23 May 2006 07:44:50 +0100, Austin Shackles
> || <[email protected]> wrote:
> ||
> ||| On or around Tue, 23 May 2006 00:06:46 +0100, Alex
> ||| <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
> |||
> ||||
> |||| Um, Santana are still producing what is basically a Series III
> |||| with a
> |||| 2.8 TDi in it.
> |||
> ||| yeah, but it's not a 2.8 TDi, it's an IVECO. There is a lot in
> ||| south america producing the oversized TDi, but that's a different
> ||| animal.
> |||
> ||
> || Since the Initials TDI stand for Turbo Diesel Injection,
>
> Turbocharged Direct Injection.
>
> || the moniker
> || TDI applies to all current diesel engines.
>
> No - only those with direct injection, I reckon, which is not all current
> engines by any means.
>
> || Therefore the Iveco engine
> || is a 2.8 TDI.
>
> Only by your definition.
>
> || Landrover do not have a monopoly on the initials TDI.
>
> No, but the letters Tdi (in this NG at least) will be taken to apply to
> engines made by Land Rover in the 200/300 Tdi series.
>
> --
> Rich
> ==============================
>
> I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.

Or Turbo Diesel Intercooler have a look at this beasty
http://www.lrm.co.uk/archive/technical/intercooler.html
Derek

"Srtgray" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Larry wrote:
>> I must say Ford get nothing from me, however I got fed up with Ford when
>> they started hiking the prices on there back catalogue of spares, an
>> obvios
>> ploy to get one to dump the old motor and buy a new one.
>>
>> Anyway Ford can afford to build defenders easily enough without the rest
>> of
>> the catalogue, is not as if any part of Landrover is there mainstay
>> anyway
>>
>
> Well, it's only the "luxury car" marques (Jaguar, Range Rover, Volvo,
> Aston) that make any money for Ford. "Ford" cars just about break even. It
> was the same for (old) Rover, British Leyland, Rover Group - only the
> luxury model(s) (in those case, Jaguars and Land-Rover) which made the
> money. Look at MG-Rover after the BMW sell-off: zero profit, collapse.
> Without Land Rover and the like, Ford wouldn't survive.
>

One small problem with your argument. Both Land Rover and Jaguar make quite
substantial losses for Ford.

Huw

Huw wrote:
> "Srtgray" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Larry wrote:
>>
>>>I must say Ford get nothing from me, however I got fed up with Ford when
>>>they started hiking the prices on there back catalogue of spares, an
>>>obvios
>>>ploy to get one to dump the old motor and buy a new one.
>>>
>>>Anyway Ford can afford to build defenders easily enough without the rest
>>>of
>>>the catalogue, is not as if any part of Landrover is there mainstay
>>>anyway
>>>
>>
>>Well, it's only the "luxury car" marques (Jaguar, Range Rover, Volvo,
>>Aston) that make any money for Ford. "Ford" cars just about break even. It
>>was the same for (old) Rover, British Leyland, Rover Group - only the
>>luxury model(s) (in those case, Jaguars and Land-Rover) which made the
>>money. Look at MG-Rover after the BMW sell-off: zero profit, collapse.
>>Without Land Rover and the like, Ford wouldn't survive.
>>
>
>
> One small problem with your argument. Both Land Rover and Jaguar make quite
> substantial losses for Ford.
>
> Huw
>
>
Jaguar I don't know, but Land Rover making a loss? Land Rover have
*never* made a loss in over 50 years - it was indeed the only part of
the above mentioned companies making a *profit*. There was a graphic on
the BBC news website showing the income for MG Rover at the time of the
collapse and the previous few years. Before the split, and after was a
change of about 70% downwards. If Ford are claiming that Land Rover are
making a loss (and I mean the whole division, not just the Defender
line), then either they are using creative accounting, or the Freelander
is more of a dog than I had thought.

Stuart

> Jaguar I don't know, but Land Rover making a loss? Land Rover have
> *never* made a loss in over 50 years - it was indeed the only part of
> the above mentioned companies making a *profit*. There was a graphic on
> the BBC news website showing the income for MG Rover at the time of the
> collapse and the previous few years. Before the split, and after was a
> change of about 70% downwards. If Ford are claiming that Land Rover are
> making a loss (and I mean the whole division, not just the Defender
> line), then either they are using creative accounting, or the Freelander
> is more of a dog than I had thought.

Yes, Ford are in trouble - losses of £600m+ this year. IIRC in the US
their main market is now the SUV's powered by huge V8 engines - and when
the price of fuel have gone from 80c / gallon to $3 in such a short
time, that market is starting to die off in the US. PAG - which
comprises LR, Jaguar, Volvo and Aston made a decent profit - although
Jaguar in themselves are making huge losses. tho I think even LR are
struggling in the US.

Matt.

On or around Tue, 23 May 2006 20:40:01 +0100, "Richard Brookman"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>No - only those with direct injection, I reckon, which is not all current
>engines by any means.
>
>|| Therefore the Iveco engine
>|| is a 2.8 TDI.
>
>Only by your definition.

although in fact I think it is a DI.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic
face by frightening people in the street.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

On or around Tue, 23 May 2006 20:00:56 +0100, Alex
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>On Tue, 23 May 2006 07:44:50 +0100, Austin Shackles
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On or around Tue, 23 May 2006 00:06:46 +0100, Alex
>><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>
>>>
>>>Um, Santana are still producing what is basically a Series III with a
>>>2.8 TDi in it.
>>
>>yeah, but it's not a 2.8 TDi, it's an IVECO. There is a lot in south
>>america producing the oversized TDi, but that's a different animal.
>>
>
>Since the Initials TDI stand for Turbo Diesel Injection, the moniker
>TDI applies to all current diesel engines. Therefore the Iveco engine
>is a 2.8 TDI. Landrover do not have a monopoly on the initials TDI.

Actually, I thought it was turbo direct injection, as distinct from indirect
injection.

however, in LR discussion, TDi normally means LR's version, which in a few
cases is also EDC, although by a similar system to my tranny, with an
injection pump with electronic control, rather than common-rail or unit
injector.

I assume the powerstroke(?) engine that's being made in south america is
still using the bosch injection pump, suitably reset for the bigger
capacity.

quite fancy one of them in a disco, mind. The TDi disco is not bad, but
there's a limit to how much go you can get from it without making it smoke
too much.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic
face by frightening people in the street.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

In message <[email protected]>
Srtgray <[email protected]> wrote:

> Larry wrote:
> > I must say Ford get nothing from me, however I got fed up with Ford when
> > they started hiking the prices on there back catalogue of spares, an obvios
> > ploy to get one to dump the old motor and buy a new one.
> >
> > Anyway Ford can afford to build defenders easily enough without the rest of
> > the catalogue, is not as if any part of Landrover is there mainstay anyway
> >
>
> Well, it's only the "luxury car" marques (Jaguar, Range Rover, Volvo,
> Aston) that make any money for Ford. "Ford" cars just about break even.
> It was the same for (old) Rover, British Leyland, Rover Group - only
> the luxury model(s) (in those case, Jaguars and Land-Rover) which made
> the money. Look at MG-Rover after the BMW sell-off: zero profit,
> collapse. Without Land Rover and the like, Ford wouldn't survive.
>
> Stuart

Last I heard on the new was that the reverse is/was true - Ford's
Premier Group was losing money while the bread-and-butter stuff
was doing well. Mind you, the figures can be "manipulated" to
suit, i.e. closing Browns Lane.

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay

> Last I heard on the new was that the reverse is/was true - Ford's
> Premier Group was losing money while the bread-and-butter stuff
> was doing well. Mind you, the figures can be "manipulated" to
> suit, i.e. closing Browns Lane.

This years figures show that Ford made a loss, whist PAG made a
profit - last year PAG made a loss, I'm not sure about Ford.

Matt

On Wednesday, in article
<[email protected]>
[email protected] "Srtgray" wrote:

> Huw wrote:
> > "Srtgray" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>Larry wrote:
> >>
> >>>I must say Ford get nothing from me, however I got fed up with Ford when
> >>>they started hiking the prices on there back catalogue of spares, an
> >>>obvios
> >>>ploy to get one to dump the old motor and buy a new one.
> >>>
> >>>Anyway Ford can afford to build defenders easily enough without the rest
> >>>of
> >>>the catalogue, is not as if any part of Landrover is there mainstay
> >>>anyway
> >>>
> >>
> >>Well, it's only the "luxury car" marques (Jaguar, Range Rover, Volvo,
> >>Aston) that make any money for Ford. "Ford" cars just about break even. It
> >>was the same for (old) Rover, British Leyland, Rover Group - only the
> >>luxury model(s) (in those case, Jaguars and Land-Rover) which made the
> >>money. Look at MG-Rover after the BMW sell-off: zero profit, collapse.
> >>Without Land Rover and the like, Ford wouldn't survive.
> >>
> >
> >
> > One small problem with your argument. Both Land Rover and Jaguar make quite
> > substantial losses for Ford.
> >
> > Huw
> >
> >
> Jaguar I don't know, but Land Rover making a loss? Land Rover have
> *never* made a loss in over 50 years - it was indeed the only part of
> the above mentioned companies making a *profit*. There was a graphic on
> the BBC news website showing the income for MG Rover at the time of the
> collapse and the previous few years. Before the split, and after was a
> change of about 70% downwards. If Ford are claiming that Land Rover are
> making a loss (and I mean the whole division, not just the Defender
> line), then either they are using creative accounting, or the Freelander
> is more of a dog than I had thought.

Maybe not quite "creative" accounting, but Ford have paid for all of
Land Rover in one lump, and have to pay off all that investment rather
rapidly. Set that against the division's operating profit, and you will
almost certainly have a loss.

Land Rover, when they were designing those models and building
production lines, did not do it all at once. They already had the land,
maybe even the buildings.

It's like a buying a house. The previous owner's mortgage has nothing to
do with what the new owner has to pay.


--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"I am Number Two," said Penfold. "You are Number Six."

On or around Wed, 24 May 2006 08:26:51 +0100, Matthew Maddock
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>and when
>the price of fuel have gone from 80c / gallon to $3

have to say, "about time too". ultra-cheap gas is all very fine but it
promotes a recklessly wasteful society. In a country where they had for a
long time a blanket 55mph limit, they have cars with 7 litre engines. The
smallest engine per-size-of-car I had was an HC viva with a whole 1256cc,
which was quite capable of cruising at 55 mph.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"You praise the firm restraint with which they write -_
I'm with you there, of course: They use the snaffle and the bit
alright, but where's the bloody horse? - Roy Campbell (1902-1957)

On Tue, 23 May 2006 17:34:42 +0100, Ian Rawlings
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2006-05-23, AJH <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Can it be retro fitted to engines that have all the sensors and closed
>> loop gumph?
>
>That's the kind of engine that often already has a standard query bus
>installed, have a google search for your car and "ecu diagnostics" and
>see what comes up.

Thanks for this and the later info, the search you mentioned yields a
guy with apparently the same problem diagnosed and fixed with a new
ecu. As the car is a freebie it's not worth spending 800 quid on. It
does seem strange scrapping a big car with everything else working on
it, I will live with the problem till MOT next month but it would have
been useful to force it to stay open loop.

AJH