Last Land-Rover for mere mortals?

If been reading the threads regarding the TD5 models with some
bemusement (and alarm), and have come to the conclusion that Land-Rover
(yes, I still use the hyphen) have shot themselves in the foot. All
this electronic jiggery-pokery like ECUs and switches that are really
relays seems somewhat counter productive. So, which was the last "real"
Land-Rover? I'm assuming that the 300TDi could still be maintained with
a set of ring spanners and a big 'ammer, but when did they go out of
production?

Cheers,
Stuart

1984 110 V8 - and fiercely proud of it!

Srtgray <[email protected]> wrote:

> If been reading the threads regarding the TD5 models with some
> bemusement (and alarm), and have come to the conclusion that Land-Rover
> (yes, I still use the hyphen) have shot themselves in the foot. All
> this electronic jiggery-pokery like ECUs and switches that are really
> relays seems somewhat counter productive.

There's no problem with ECUs if they want to help but the current crop
throw up their hands and scream for a service agent at the first hint
of trouble. Even the outboard on the boat has a limp-home-mode if all
it's fancy works goes wrong because abandoning the customers at sea
would be bad for business.

Land Rover just seem to have given up on the Rufty-tufty image and
gone all Corperate Black Tie on us and in the process are loosing
the one thing that made people value them. Big fat tyres and 4 wheel
drive mean nothing if a simple sensor fault means you need a flatbed
haul-away truck.

nigelH



*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

On Mon, 22 May 2006 12:12:37 +0200, Srtgray <[email protected]>
wrote:

>(yes, I still use the hyphen)

Why?

Mother wrote:
> On Mon, 22 May 2006 12:12:37 +0200, Srtgray <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>(yes, I still use the hyphen)
>
>
> Why?
>
Bloody mindedness, and a sense of History. After all, it was there for
thirty years between 1948 and the formation of "Land Rover Ltd." as a
sub-division of British Leyland in 1978 (9?).

Stuart

Srtgray wrote:
> If been reading the threads regarding the TD5 models with some
> bemusement (and alarm), and have come to the conclusion that Land-Rover
> (yes, I still use the hyphen) have shot themselves in the foot. All
> this electronic jiggery-pokery like ECUs and switches that are really
> relays seems somewhat counter productive. So, which was the last "real"
> Land-Rover? I'm assuming that the 300TDi could still be maintained with
> a set of ring spanners and a big 'ammer, but when did they go out of
> production?

Do people think that LR would be in business if it was still retailing
SIII's??! Times change, things change and if business doesn't
change with it they disappear. In 20 years time we'll probably have
people saying how wonderful and easy the Td5 was to work on compared
to the complicated crap that is being made now!

Matt

and its probably the same reason why the army have ended the contract with LR.
strong and simple is what the army require, just kike their squadies.

Interesting thought about whether still retailing Series IIIs would work.
The Santana (which I think of as a developed Series III) seems to do ok, so
who knows what would have happened if, for example, Land-Rover had done a
production Series III(A?) or 90, with perhaps a factory-fitted intercooled
Prima diesel engine + servo disc brakes as one option, and a slightly wider
body, with space between the rear wheel arches for a standard Euro-pallet?

I suspect that even today something like that would sell, and at a profit!

Simon






"Matthew Maddock" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> Srtgray wrote:
>> If been reading the threads regarding the TD5 models with some bemusement
>> (and alarm), and have come to the conclusion that Land-Rover (yes, I
>> still use the hyphen) have shot themselves in the foot. All this
>> electronic jiggery-pokery like ECUs and switches that are really relays
>> seems somewhat counter productive. So, which was the last "real"
>> Land-Rover? I'm assuming that the 300TDi could still be maintained with
>> a set of ring spanners and a big 'ammer, but when did they go out of
>> production?
>
> Do people think that LR would be in business if it was still retailing
> SIII's??! Times change, things change and if business doesn't
> change with it they disappear. In 20 years time we'll probably have
> people saying how wonderful and easy the Td5 was to work on compared
> to the complicated crap that is being made now!
>
> Matt

Matthew Maddock wrote:
> Srtgray wrote:
>
<snip>
>
>
> Do people think that LR would be in business if it was still retailing
> SIII's??! Times change, things change and if business doesn't
> change with it they disappear. In 20 years time we'll probably have
> people saying how wonderful and easy the Td5 was to work on compared
> to the complicated crap that is being made now!
>
> Matt

Well, not me for one. I loved my series IIs, but I much prefer my 110.
I'm all in favour of progress, and I'm sure that the Range Rover and
Discovery have benefitted from all the new-fangled stuff (and don't
forget thet LR make most of their money on these models) BUT the
Defender is a work horse that should be able to tackle most stuff
without needing computer equipment to sort out problems. Would anyone
in their right mind take a TD5 overland through Africa?

Stuart

> I suspect that even today something like that would sell, and at a profit!

I somehow doubt it - not on a large scale anyway. Land Rover have
extended the time the Def. is in production because they have found a
way of making them profitable again - I don't recall the details
but they were due to stop making them because they were not being
sold for a profit! Unfortunately new EU safety regs. due to come in
in the next few years will kill off the Defender for good regardless
of whether LR can sell them for a profit or not. Where would LR
be then without the Freeloader/Disco/RR?

Much as I agree that if you want to go on a long trek you need
simplicity, that is such a small market now that there just isn't
enough money in it for a large car manufacturer.

Matt

>Would anyone in their right mind take a TD5 overland through Africa?


Many have done and still do. The only common problem is the poor mpg on
African quality diesel.

Regards

Neil

bumble101 <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz funny about:
>> Would anyone in their right mind take a TD5 overland through Africa?
>
>
> Many have done and still do. The only common problem is the poor mpg
> on African quality diesel.
>
> Regards
>
> Neil

Neil,

I'd just like to say that when Bumble got charged at I was on the edge of my
seat!

How easy or not did you find obtaining Diesel in Africa out of interest.

Lee
--
www.lrproject.com
Reaching the parts other Landrover restorers can't reach - JLo makes new
home in the USA.
Percy IIa - two Engines to the mile, awaits a new chassis.
Morph - He's "living the dream".

a.f.l. & 101ers Unofficial October 2006
<http://www.lrproject.com/afl__101_owners_unofficial.htm>

I would have no problem with ECU's if they were guanenteed, no
questions asked, for the life of the vehicle as a free swap out.

If you think of what you get charged for a replacement (anything up to
ZAR50K here in South africa) it makes the prospect of owning a TD5
scary to me, and the same goes for any new wagon.

I am of the firm opionin that new vehicles are made for possbily
around 5 year lifespans, and after that it should die. Could you
imagine trying to sort Rangie Sport that is 15yrs old, worth a couple
of thousand quid and being told that you need to spend thousands just
to get the air bags legal.

Regards
Stephen

Finding Diesel in Africa was simple - every Petrol Station in West Africa.
You can easily find Diesel in the Sahara. You will struggle to find
unleaded.

Okay Diesel in the middle of the Sahara was £1 (UK) per litre.

Andy


"Lee_D" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> bumble101 <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz funny about:
>>> Would anyone in their right mind take a TD5 overland through Africa?
>>
>>
>> Many have done and still do. The only common problem is the poor mpg
>> on African quality diesel.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Neil
>
> Neil,
>
> I'd just like to say that when Bumble got charged at I was on the edge of
> my seat!
>
> How easy or not did you find obtaining Diesel in Africa out of interest.
>
> Lee
> --
> www.lrproject.com
> Reaching the parts other Landrover restorers can't reach - JLo makes new
> home in the USA.
> Percy IIa - two Engines to the mile, awaits a new chassis.
> Morph - He's "living the dream".
>
> a.f.l. & 101ers Unofficial October 2006
> <http://www.lrproject.com/afl__101_owners_unofficial.htm>
>

In message <[email protected]>
Matthew Maddock <[email protected]> wrote:

> Srtgray wrote:
> > If been reading the threads regarding the TD5 models with some
> > bemusement (and alarm), and have come to the conclusion that Land-Rover
> > (yes, I still use the hyphen) have shot themselves in the foot. All
> > this electronic jiggery-pokery like ECUs and switches that are really
> > relays seems somewhat counter productive. So, which was the last "real"
> > Land-Rover? I'm assuming that the 300TDi could still be maintained with
> > a set of ring spanners and a big 'ammer, but when did they go out of
> > production?
>
> Do people think that LR would be in business if it was still retailing
> SIII's??! Times change, things change and if business doesn't
> change with it they disappear. In 20 years time we'll probably have
> people saying how wonderful and easy the Td5 was to work on compared
> to the complicated crap that is being made now!
>
> Matt

Does Land Rover exist without Defender? Or is it just a
marketing name like Jeep? As a customer of theirs who wants
a Defender-type vehicle then I have to say the if
it were removed from the line-up there is nothing else in the
range that I would wish to drive any more. A vehicle with a
headlamp unit costing £200 to £400 is not an off-road vehicle,
no-one could afford to use it (I'm not counting dirt tracks as
off-road, many "family saloons" can be driven down those quite
happily, and are in this neck of the woods Citroen & Pegeuot
seem to be favourites).

I'm certain that when Defender is "updated" it is going to be aimed
squarely at the US market, and thereby become legislated into
mediocrity like Jeep. No more £10 headlamp units, cheap body panels,
£2.00 inicators etc etc. The way things are going the parts book is
going to be a single page with one part number - that of a new vehicle!
No doubt "legislation" will be cited as the reason, but Santana seem
to be quite happy with their Defender clone, so that must just an
excuse - what those who say that are really saying is US legislation,
in which case LR should make two specifications of vehicle, just
like Toyota etc.

Sure I sell parts for all Land Rovers, but that's my business,
but my passion is off-road vehicles and keeping the best 4x4xfar
off the road.

And I realy can't see anyone missing the Td5 and onwards engines,
but I do see a lot of poeple, mostly farmers, on a dialy basis who
miss their 200/300Tdi's in their work tools. If I had a quid every
time someone said LR have lost the plot I'd be very wealthy! Still,
like the bloke on Saturday, if they sell their Td5 Defender any
buy s/h 300's I'll be a happy man.

Soap box packed away. Well actually no, I've just got back from
the Post Office and...... I'll start a new thread!

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay

In message <[email protected]>
"bumble101" <[email protected]> wrote:

> >Would anyone in their right mind take a TD5 overland through Africa?
>
>
> Many have done and still do. The only common problem is the poor mpg on
> African quality diesel.
>
> Regards
>
> Neil
>

Rainbow Rovers had to brand new 90's in the Sahara. They would
not go. No TestBook available. They sat there for 2 years I'm
told by someone who would know. Not very impressive!

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay

In message <[email protected]>
fanie <[email protected]> wrote:

> I would have no problem with ECU's if they were guanenteed, no
> questions asked, for the life of the vehicle as a free swap out.
>
> If you think of what you get charged for a replacement (anything up to
> ZAR50K here in South africa) it makes the prospect of owning a TD5
> scary to me, and the same goes for any new wagon.
>
> I am of the firm opionin that new vehicles are made for possbily
> around 5 year lifespans, and after that it should die. Could you
> imagine trying to sort Rangie Sport that is 15yrs old, worth a couple
> of thousand quid and being told that you need to spend thousands just
> to get the air bags legal.
>

Hear hear! 38a Range Rover anyone? Haynes havn't even bothered
with a manual.......

> Regards
> Stephen

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay

In message <[email protected]>
"Simon Oates" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Interesting thought about whether still retailing Series IIIs would work.
> The Santana (which I think of as a developed Series III) seems to do ok, so
> who knows what would have happened if, for example, Land-Rover had done a
> production Series III(A?) or 90, with perhaps a factory-fitted intercooled
> Prima diesel engine + servo disc brakes as one option, and a slightly wider
> body, with space between the rear wheel arches for a standard Euro-pallet?
>

That is the HCPU - specifically designed to take Europallets.

> I suspect that even today something like that would sell, and at a profit!
>

There's a lot to be said for leaf springs - ask the Far Eastern
manufacturers!

> Simon
>

Richard

>
>
>
>
>
> "Matthew Maddock" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:[email protected]...
> > Srtgray wrote:
> >> If been reading the threads regarding the TD5 models with some bemusement
> >> (and alarm), and have come to the conclusion that Land-Rover (yes, I
> >> still use the hyphen) have shot themselves in the foot. All this
> >> electronic jiggery-pokery like ECUs and switches that are really relays
> >> seems somewhat counter productive. So, which was the last "real"
> >> Land-Rover? I'm assuming that the 300TDi could still be maintained with
> >> a set of ring spanners and a big 'ammer, but when did they go out of
> >> production?
> >
> > Do people think that LR would be in business if it was still retailing
> > SIII's??! Times change, things change and if business doesn't
> > change with it they disappear. In 20 years time we'll probably have
> > people saying how wonderful and easy the Td5 was to work on compared
> > to the complicated crap that is being made now!
> >
> > Matt
>
>

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay

In message <[email protected]>
Matthew Maddock <[email protected]> wrote:

> > I suspect that even today something like that would sell, and at a profit!
>
> I somehow doubt it - not on a large scale anyway. Land Rover have
> extended the time the Def. is in production because they have found a
> way of making them profitable again - I don't recall the details
> but they were due to stop making them because they were not being
> sold for a profit! Unfortunately new EU safety regs. due to come in
> in the next few years will kill off the Defender for good regardless
> of whether LR can sell them for a profit or not. Where would LR
> be then without the Freeloader/Disco/RR?
>

That can't be quite right - or have Santana developed a vehicle
for only a few years production? I doubt that very much.

> Much as I agree that if you want to go on a long trek you need
> simplicity, that is such a small market now that there just isn't
> enough money in it for a large car manufacturer.
>
> Matt

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay

beamendsltd wrote:
> In message <[email protected]>
> Matthew Maddock <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Srtgray wrote:
>>
>>>If been reading the threads regarding the TD5 models with some
>>>bemusement (and alarm), and have come to the conclusion that Land-Rover
>>>(yes, I still use the hyphen) have shot themselves in the foot. All
>>>this electronic jiggery-pokery like ECUs and switches that are really
>>>relays seems somewhat counter productive. So, which was the last "real"
>>>Land-Rover? I'm assuming that the 300TDi could still be maintained with
>>>a set of ring spanners and a big 'ammer, but when did they go out of
>>>production?
>>
>>Do people think that LR would be in business if it was still retailing
>>SIII's??! Times change, things change and if business doesn't
>>change with it they disappear. In 20 years time we'll probably have
>>people saying how wonderful and easy the Td5 was to work on compared
>>to the complicated crap that is being made now!
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> Does Land Rover exist without Defender? Or is it just a
> marketing name like Jeep? As a customer of theirs who wants
> a Defender-type vehicle then I have to say the if
> it were removed from the line-up there is nothing else in the
> range that I would wish to drive any more. A vehicle with a
> headlamp unit costing £200 to £400 is not an off-road vehicle,
> no-one could afford to use it (I'm not counting dirt tracks as
> off-road, many "family saloons" can be driven down those quite
> happily, and are in this neck of the woods Citroen & Pegeuot
> seem to be favourites).
>
> I'm certain that when Defender is "updated" it is going to be aimed
> squarely at the US market, and thereby become legislated into
> mediocrity like Jeep. No more £10 headlamp units, cheap body panels,
> £2.00 inicators etc etc. The way things are going the parts book is
> going to be a single page with one part number - that of a new vehicle!
> No doubt "legislation" will be cited as the reason, but Santana seem
> to be quite happy with their Defender clone, so that must just an
> excuse - what those who say that are really saying is US legislation,
> in which case LR should make two specifications of vehicle, just
> like Toyota etc.
>
> Sure I sell parts for all Land Rovers, but that's my business,
> but my passion is off-road vehicles and keeping the best 4x4xfar
> off the road.
>
> And I realy can't see anyone missing the Td5 and onwards engines,
> but I do see a lot of poeple, mostly farmers, on a dialy basis who
> miss their 200/300Tdi's in their work tools. If I had a quid every
> time someone said LR have lost the plot I'd be very wealthy! Still,
> like the bloke on Saturday, if they sell their Td5 Defender any
> buy s/h 300's I'll be a happy man.
>
> Soap box packed away. Well actually no, I've just got back from
> the Post Office and...... I'll start a new thread!
>
> Richard
>
I have to agree. having worked for an LR dealer in the 70's and owned a
1980's 110 in the 90's I know whay I would like.
Series were loveley, but too slow for today's roads and the
suspension..... Let's just say I had a customer with a SWB diesel
hardtop who complained of a rattle - I tested it and could only conclude
that it was his brain rattling!
The 110 with coil springs mase all the difference, and the 2.5l petrol,
not the best engine ever, but at least it could cruise at 60mph. And
off-road, it was all I wanted, I have no desire to go down cliffs
depending on a computer!
So, to answer the question, I reckon the 110/Defender n it's earlier
incarnations, with a simple engine was the last real one!

John

On or around Mon, 22 May 2006 16:05:08 GMT, "Andrew Renshaw"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Finding Diesel in Africa was simple - every Petrol Station in West Africa.
>You can easily find Diesel in the Sahara. You will struggle to find
>unleaded.
>
>Okay Diesel in the middle of the Sahara was £1 (UK) per litre.
>

just like home then :-(
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".