Diesel stalling in hot weather

Missus has just contacted me saying the car stalled several times on the way home. She's made the connection that it was blistering hot (for me that's over 20C) last time this happened. It hadn't done it for a while so I kind of assumed it was a blip.

I'm sure I've read these symptoms before somewhere but cannot for the life of me think what the answer was. Would a failing temperature sensor cause it to stall? Surely it would just assume cold and stick too much fuel in?

Or could the cam position sensor be failing in the heat?

When I get home I'll plug the Nanocom in and see if I can pick up any faults. Probably by then it'll have cooled down and I'll be unable to reproduce the fault! hey ho ...

Any ideas welcome,

Cheers,

J

Grrrrrr said:

Missus has just contacted me saying the car stalled several times on the way home. She's made the connection that it was blistering hot (for me that's over 20C) last time this happened. It hadn't done it for a while so I kind of assumed it was a blip.

I'm sure I've read these symptoms before somewhere but cannot for the life of me think what the answer was. Would a failing temperature sensor cause it to stall? Surely it would just assume cold and stick too much fuel in?

Or could the cam position sensor be failing in the heat?

When I get home I'll plug the Nanocom in and see if I can pick up any faults. Probably by then it'll have cooled down and I'll be unable to reproduce the fault! hey ho ...

Any ideas welcome,

Cheers,

J

Click to expand...

No cam sensor on diesel. CPS maybe failing or quantity servo problem. Reason for stall should be recorded on Nanocom.

Grrrrrr said:

Any ideas welcome,

Cheers,

J

Click to expand...

Get a petrol one !

Spot on, Wammers.

Managed to reproduce it after clearing the faults too. xactly the same faults each time. Cruise control not fitted and always get that fault so can ignore that. Injection timing fault. Is that off number 4 injector or crank position sensor or something else?!

NANOCOM - EDC.APP - EDC faults file

CRUISE CONTROL SIGNAL OUT OF RANGE
Type: TOO HIGH,LOGGED,CURRENT
RPM = 0
WATER TEMP = 72
OCCURRANCE = 10
---
INJECTOR TIMING VALUE OUT OF EXPECTED RANGE
Type: INVALID FAULT,MAJOR FAULT,LOGGED,INTERMITTENT
RPM = 33
INJ. FLOW = 79
OCCURRANCE = 6
---

ukadamwest said:

Get a petrol one !

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Touche!

Of course, then it'd be once month instead of once a year ...

Just been out again. It stalls when slowing down using engine braking. When I put the clutch down it stalls, almost as if the revs dip too low as I dip the clutch and it thinks the engine shouldn't be running. PITA.

Hmmm....Fuel Qunatity servo thingy??

I think that without CPS won't start whereas loss of no.4 will make the ECU operate in a 'back up' fuel map I think...but the injection lamp will be lit I believe!

When you rev it and then suddenly take your foot off the pedal, does the injector light come on then off??

Saint.V8 said:

Hmmm....Fuel Qunatity servo thingy??

I think that without CPS won't start whereas loss of no.4 will make the ECU operate in a 'back up' fuel map I think...but the injection lamp will be lit I believe!

When you rev it and then suddenly take your foot off the pedal, does the injector light come on then off??

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Didn't notice it. Tickover seemed a little low but no lights. Went for a drive and on lifting off the throttle and dipping the clutch it stalled so all lights on - was more worried about the loss of steering though!

JohnnyCrash had similar episode here: http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f10/nanocom-faults-249959.html

So far my reading is looking rather nastily like FIP issue. I know mine is worn so that wouldn't be a big surprise. I took a quick EDC trace at idle so when the missus is finished with the laptop I'll have a look at it.

Mind you, I then read this post here and that made me suitably worried given the strange clutch behaviour I had a few months back: http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f10/p38-bmw-diesel-lumpy-tickover-59976.html

I think the DMF above is a red herring though. My leaning is more towards FIP. I know the static probably has never been adjusted so wondering if buying the tools and checking that first might be an idea. Number 4 injector has to be cheaper than a new FIP so maybe that next. Finally maybe look at a reconditioned FIP. These people look OK: BBA reman. ABS, ecu's, throttle bodies, air mass meters, MFD and catalytic converters

I might be overreacting though. I hope so!

4.0 GEMS I think is a good idea

Saint.V8 said:

4.0 GEMS I think is a good idea

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If only someone hadn't nicked a load of bits off it and left it immobile! Maybe I could transfer the engine? Be quicker than sorting all the issues on it.

Got the trace data from the EDC fuelling. Doesn't look good.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By7n3F7TXDU8MmpjczNidUhHVGs/view?usp=sharing

Inj. actual degrees is often 0! Way too low. Timing modulation way out.

Saint.V8 said:

Hmmm....Fuel Qunatity servo thingy??

I think that without CPS won't start whereas loss of no.4 will make the ECU operate in a 'back up' fuel map I think...but the injection lamp will be lit I believe!

When you rev it and then suddenly take your foot off the pedal, does the injector light come on then off??

Click to expand...

Number four injector has nothing to do with fuelling. It is for control of timing solenoid. It measures actual injection point and the ECU adjusts the timing solenoid within mapped parameters. If it fails the car will go into limp mode and the MIL lamp will come on. If you rev it or lift off throttle and also when coming off cruise and the MIL lamp flashes on, odds on it's s quantity solenoid fault.

Grrrrrr said:

If only someone hadn't nicked a load of bits off it and left it immobile! Maybe I could transfer the engine? Be quicker than sorting all the issues on it.

Got the trace data from the EDC fuelling. Doesn't look good.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By7n3F7TXDU8MmpjczNidUhHVGs/view?usp=sharing

Inj. actual degrees is often 0! Way too low. Timing modulation way out.

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What is the modulation at idle warm engine? Have you got some objection to the actual injection point being at TDC?

wammers said:

What is the modulation at idle warm engine? Have you got some objection to the actual injection point being at TDC?

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When I see a string of zeros with the odd non-zero number I tend to think broken sensor. Past readings have never been that low.

Modulation was 92% - yes, I know, massively too high.

Just seen a whole new engine for £250. Might be quicker and easier to just swap it in?!

wammers said:

Number four injector has nothing to do with fuelling. It is for control of timing solenoid. It measures actual injection point and the ECU adjusts the timing solenoid within mapped parameters. If it fails the car will go into limp mode and the MIL lamp will come on. If you rev it or lift off throttle and also when coming off cruise and the MIL lamp flashes on, odds on it's s quantity solenoid fault.

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Well, the fault was INJECTOR TIMING VALUE OUT OF EXPECTED RANGE.

No cruise control so cannot test that. It revved OK. Pulled like a train when it was going down the road.

Grrrrrr said:

When I see a string of zeros with the odd non-zero number I tend to think broken sensor. Past readings have never been that low.

Modulation was 92% - yes, I know, massively too high.

Just seen a whole new engine for £250. Might be quicker and easier to just swap it in?!

Click to expand...

You need the static timing re setting. Modulation is the amount of correction the ECU is applying to the timing solenoid to correct incorrect injection point as measured by number four injector. Start of injection point is measured by number four injector and compared to TDC signal from CPS. ECU then modulates timing solenoid to set actual injection point to within 1 or 2 degrees from TDC at idle. 92 % means badly retarded static timing. Maybe a good idea to check the chains before you lose one. At 92% modulation the injection timing IS out of expected range.

wammers said:

You need the static timing re setting. Modulation is the amount of correction the ECU is applying to the timing solenoid to correct incorrect injection point as measured by number four injector. Start of injection point is measured by number four injector and compared to TDC signal from CPS. ECU then modulates timing solenoid to set actual injection point to within 1 or 2 degrees from TDC at idle. 92 % means badly retarded static timing. Maybe a good idea to check the chains before you lose one. At 92% modulation the injection timing IS out of expected range.

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Well overdue. To be fair I took it to a diesel specialist last year to get it done but he said it wasn't necessary and the modulation was "the electronics doing its job". Didn't get around to buying the tools myself as I had other issues.

I poked one of those endoscope things down to have a look at the chains last year. They didn't look too bad although it is possible there might be a duff one hidden out of sight.

Thanks for the help. Looks like this just came up the priority list.

Saint.V8 said:

4.0 GEMS I think is a good idea

Click to expand...

The more I think about that idea the more I like it. We did the heater o-rings last weekend so that's done. However, it'd mean swapping an awful lot of parts over, in some cases back!

Grrrrrr said:

Well overdue. To be fair I took it to a diesel specialist last year to get it done but he said it wasn't necessary and the modulation was "the electronics doing its job". Didn't get around to buying the tools myself as I had other issues.

I poked one of those endoscope things down to have a look at the chains last year. They didn't look too bad although it is possible there might be a duff one hidden out of sight.

Thanks for the help. Looks like this just came up the priority list.

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You cannot check the chains with an endoscope. What you are looking for is toothache in the links. My bottom chain had even wear, top chain had bad play in just a couple of links. And my modulation was nothing like 92%.

wammers said:

You cannot check the chains with an endoscope. What you are looking for is toothache in the links. My bottom chain had even wear, top chain had bad play in just a couple of links. And my modulation was nothing like 92%.

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I hear you. Didn't get much sleep last night thinking about it.

I'm totting things up in my head and it isn't nice. There's the chains, guides. tensioners and then all the tools required because I don't have them. I know my FIP is tired (or so I was told by a diesel specialist). I've never done this sort of thing on a diesel before and I'm nervous. A petrol just doesn't work or runs rough. The diesel appears to either not run at all or runs away or clatters itself to death. At the end of the day I'm a desk-jockey and tinkerer. Previous experience is from a Haynes manual or from forums such as this.

I also suspect my DMF is on its way out so that'll be 500 for a DMF plus a full clutch kit, call it another 200. When I did the clutch pins I borrowed a workshop for a weekend with a four-poster. However, the guy has retired and my drive slopes and looks like the surface of the moon. Sliding a gearbox forwards on a trolley jack doesn't bear thinking about. I know others have done it in a car-park and I have the fullest respect for their ingenuity. Still, that's a problem for another day.

Just heard this on the radio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvr6X054xLY

Strangely uplifting. Smiling again now. Right, let's get at it ...