Diesel stalling in hot weather

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Grrrrrr said:
Would that not be a bit noisier and more vibration? Thought DMF was fitted because too much vibration was coming up through to gearbox etc?

Thinking about it, I don't remember the Omega 2.5TDs being as noisy. Wonder if they had DMF. May have to ask someone!
Click to expand...
Lots of different reasons given for DMF's. My view is that it's there to absorb shock from rough gear shifts and other transmission shocks. The Transit is smoother and quieter and gear shift are smoother with the solid flywheel but more inclined to suffer clutch judder when pulling away, bit more vibration at very low revs, easily avoided by dropping a gear.
 
Grrrrrr said:
Would that not be a bit noisier and more vibration? Thought DMF was fitted because too much vibration was coming up through to gearbox etc?

Thinking about it, I don't remember the Omega 2.5TDs being as noisy. Wonder if they had DMF. May have to ask someone!
Click to expand...

The DMF is designed to smooth out engine to transmission strains in high gears at low speeds. At any other time it is as useful as tits on a Mars bar. Is the worst innovation, if you can call it that, ever invented for motor vehicles.
 
For anyone interested in learning more about the FIP ...

Bosch VE pumps
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...xyYW5nZXJvdmVycDM4MnxneDo4Y2YxNWIyNzlkOWU3Yzg

Setting timing on Land Rover Tdi. Seems he is turning the pump itself here from the front of am I missing something? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6v2G0Inz5Y

Setting timing on Toyota. This looks more like what I've seen described for the Rangie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI_iV4nlEq0

Interestingly I saw several references to fix the "hot start issue" by turning the pump to 1 degree and some saying even higher, from 1.5 all the way to 4 degrees! I'd have thought something seriously out by then. Even more interestingly, RAVE says drop from 0.95 to 0.9 for engines over 20k miles - the opposite direction.

RAVE also says to loosen off the high pressure fuel pipes at the injectors when setting the timing in addition to ones on the back of the pump. Why's that? So you can wriggle the pipes around?
 
Grrrrrr said:
For anyone interested in learning more about the FIP ...

Bosch VE pumps
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...xyYW5nZXJvdmVycDM4MnxneDo4Y2YxNWIyNzlkOWU3Yzg

Setting timing on Land Rover Tdi. Seems he is turning the pump itself here from the front of am I missing something? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6v2G0Inz5Y

Setting timing on Toyota. This looks more like what I've seen described for the Rangie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI_iV4nlEq0

Interestingly I saw several references to fix the "hot start issue" by turning the pump to 1 degree and some saying even higher, from 1.5 all the way to 4 degrees! I'd have thought something seriously out by then. Even more interestingly, RAVE says drop from 0.95 to 0.9 for engines over 20k miles - the opposite direction.

RAVE also says to loosen off the high pressure fuel pipes at the injectors when setting the timing in addition to ones on the back of the pump. Why's that? So you can wriggle the pipes around?
Click to expand...

EDC pumps are set to 0.95 mm lift with new chains. When chains stretch this drops to around 0.90 mm lift. So if you fit new chains it's 0.95 if you are timing the pump with old chains it's 0.90. Injector pipes are slackened so as not to stress them when pump is turned. The TDI pumps are mechanical units and are timed with different lift than the EDC pumps. Also use a different manner of setting. Follow the instructions in RAVE. If you have a lot of chain stretch and are not planning to change them it may also be a good idea to reset the cam timing. This must be done with a feeler gauge under the N/S side of the cam locking tool if you are using old chains. See RAVE for feeler thickness. At NO time turn the engine backwards (anticlockwise). Other than a slight jiggle to engage the timing pin.
 
wammers said:
EDC pumps are set to 0.95 mm lift with new chains. When chains stretch this drops to around 0.90 mm lift. So if you fit new chains it's 0.95 if you are timing the pump with old chains it's 0.90. Injector pipes are slackened so as not to stress them when pump is turned. The TDI pumps are mechanical units and are timed with different lift than the EDC pumps. Also use a different manner of setting. Follow the instructions in RAVE. If you have a lot of chain stretch and are not planning to change them it may also be a good idea to reset the cam timing. This must be done with a feeler gauge under the N/S side of the cam locking tool if you are using old chains. See RAVE for feeler thickness. At NO time turn the engine backwards (anticlockwise). Other than a slight jiggle to engage the timing pin.
Click to expand...

I'll get around to the lot eventually but one step at a time so I can see what affects what.

1st is the static timing. Had a look at RAVE. Looks pretty simple. Just need some tools. Might be a member nearby with them. Worth a try ...
 
Grrrrrr said:
A while ago Wammers posted this as the correct timing kit: BMW & LANDROVER 1.8 2.5 TD TDS TD5 P38 CHAIN DRIVEN ENGINE TIMING TOOL SET | eBay

However, I can see this and it seems to have everything I need and more EXCEPT for the flywheel locking pin at half the price, or am I missing something? Diesel Engine Timing Tool Set Kit for BMW M41 M51 M47 M57 TU T2 E34 to E93 New | eBay

Assuming the above is OK, can I get the sprung loaded flywheel locking pin anywhere for less than £50?!
Click to expand...

If you plan on doing the chains at some stage you need the first one. Spring loaded locking pin is NOT for your engine. The second kit does have a locking pin.
 
wammers said:
If you plan on doing the chains at some stage you need the first one. Spring loaded locking pin is NOT for your engine. The second kit does have a locking pin.
Click to expand...

OK, thanks. I must have got confused at some point. I thought I had to lock the flywheel before moving the pump. Just seen your other post about using the Nanocom and just fiddling it till it runs. Makes me a tad nervous but I might give it a go. Last time I ran it with the manifold off it ballsed up all the fuel trims and it took a couple of days to settle down again.
 
Grrrrrr said:
OK, thanks. I must have got confused at some point. I thought I had to lock the flywheel before moving the pump. Just seen your other post about using the Nanocom and just fiddling it till it runs. Makes me a tad nervous but I might give it a go. Last time I ran it with the manifold off it ballsed up all the fuel trims and it took a couple of days to settle down again.
Click to expand...

Yes you do IF using the DTI to set static. Spring locking pin is for Land rover TDI engines yours is not a TDI engine. M51 lock pin is just a lock pin dimensions for it are in my EAS "How to".
 
Just out of interest, when they say reconditioned diesel pump, what exactly have they done? Seals obviously. But what else? The electronics on top? That diesel specialist I saw last year said my pump was "tired" which implies to me mechanical wear.
 
Grrrrrr said:
Just out of interest, when they say reconditioned diesel pump, what exactly have they done? Seals obviously. But what else? The electronics on top? That diesel specialist I saw last year said my pump was "tired" which implies to me mechanical wear.
Click to expand...
I imagine it depends on who does it and how much you pay. A proper re-con should include the electronics and moving parts in the top IMO as the end stop wears.
 
So, following on from Wammers suggestion here (http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f10/diesel-pump-timing-tool-set-dial-gauge-280977.html) to use the Nanocom to set timing ...

... I'm really mystified. The results of yesterday's tinkering are inconclusive as far as I'm concerned.

Is it possible to do without removing the manifold? Well, I checked my toolbox and none of my hammers could fit in. Plus, I couldn't "see" in my head what I was trying to achieve and I couldn't see an easy way of slackening off all the high pressure fuel pipes. It didn't take more than a minute to decide that for the sake of ease of access, 15 minutes to get the inlet manifold off was well worth it. Having done it I stand by this technique, especially if this is your first time at this.

I took the car for a good run and then parked up, got the Nanocom out and plugged it in for a baseline reading (air-conditioning off). The live readings on the screen showed timing modulation of about 83%. The live trace recorded agrees with this and can be found here (1): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By7n3F7TXDU8MGJhWDhhOE9jRms/view?usp=sharing

I then whipped the manifold off, started the car, gave it a minute or two to get the coolant distributed and let the revs drop down to 750rpm to get a baseline without manifold (air-conditioning off). On-screen modulation of 80% agrees well with the live trace here (2): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By7n3F7TXDU8VWZoWTlmaUdTdkE/view?usp=sharing

I then made a series of marks on the fuel injection pump (FIP) casing and timing cover, alternating between scribed using a bradawl and also a permanent marker so I had a crude gauge.

FIPposition1original.jpg

I completely loosened the nut on the bottom of the bracket on the rear of the FIP and slacked the front 2 nuts. What followed was an incredibly frustrating few hours of tapping the pump towards the engine to reduce modulation, tightening the front 2 buts, starting and warming, taking a trace and then tapping it back the other way to increase the modulation again. It seemed to either sit in the eighties or sit in the teens and refuse to stay anywhere in-between. A couple of example traces and photos of position are below. All done with air-conditioning off.

(3) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By7n3F7TXDU8MjZNbDFxdVJrc2M/view?usp=sharing
FIPposition4.jpg
(4) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By7n3F7TXDU8bjdqRTZEem9fc00/view?usp=sharing

I then decided to be a little risky and leave the engine running while tapping the pump. Fortunately a neighbour had come out to show solidarity at this stage so I got him to sit in the car calling out readings with instructions to kill the ignition if anything looked at all out of control. What we observed had both of us foxed. If I left the pump at 11% modulation it seems to stay there. If I leave it around 83% it seems to stay there. If I leave it anywhere in-between, say 30% and lock it off, it stays at 30% for a short time and then creeps up to the eighties. If I put the air-conditioning on then the modulation rises, if I switch it off the modulation falls again.

(5) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By7n3F7TXDU8ZEZlS0w0UzRFLVU/view?usp=sharing
FIPposition5.jpg

After much mucking about I decided to call it a day. I got the modulatation on 40%, tightened everything up, put the manifold back on and then went for a drive. No difference as far as I could see. Once back I parked up and took a final trace (6): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By7n3F7TXDU8WUk1TnZ6a1k1dXM/view?usp=sharing
FIPposition6.jpg

Here it gets really weird. Everytime I put the air-con off the modulation drops into the 30s. Switch it on and it rises back up to 84% - pretty back where we started the day, even though the final position of the pump has clearly moved towards the engine. Similarly, if I rev the engine or drive for a bit and then stop and let it idle, the modulation one more drops back to the 30s / 40s but then slowly creeps back up until once more it sits in the early 80s.

I cannot get my head around this. Surely if it was mechanical then it'd just stay where it is? Which makes me suspect some sort of electrickery is somehow pushing it towards the stable values of either 80% (or 10% when the pump is turned more towards the engine). My feeling is that there's more than one thing affecting this and I don't have all the pieces of the puzzle yet.

Unfortunately I'm the sort of person who never reads manuals. I tend to work things out from first principle or ask someone and work it out from there. However, I'm getting the horrible feeling that I'm going to have to dig out as much as I can on the EDC module, the workings of the FIP and that mysterious hot-start fix that is fitted and try and map all the interdependencies because I just cannot get a model in my head that feels right at the moment. Unfortunately time is my enemy there, although admittedly there might be more of that if I hadn't been so busy marinating my brain in Chiltern Black ale last night!

Hope that's of interest to Brian / whoever.

J
 

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Grrrrrr said:
So, following on from Wammers suggestion here (http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f10/diesel-pump-timing-tool-set-dial-gauge-280977.html) to use the Nanocom to set timing ...

... I'm really mystified. The results of yesterday's tinkering are inconclusive as far as I'm concerned.

Is it possible to do without removing the manifold? Well, I checked my toolbox and none of my hammers could fit in. Plus, I couldn't "see" in my head what I was trying to achieve and I couldn't see an easy way of slackening off all the high pressure fuel pipes. It didn't take more than a minute to decide that for the sake of ease of access, 15 minutes to get the inlet manifold off was well worth it. Having done it I stand by this technique, especially if this is your first time at this.

I took the car for a good run and then parked up, got the Nanocom out and plugged it in for a baseline reading (air-conditioning off). The live readings on the screen showed timing modulation of about 83%. The live trace recorded agrees with this and can be found here (1): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By7n3F7TXDU8MGJhWDhhOE9jRms/view?usp=sharing

I then whipped the manifold off, started the car, gave it a minute or two to get the coolant distributed and let the revs drop down to 750rpm to get a baseline without manifold (air-conditioning off). On-screen modulation of 80% agrees well with the live trace here (2): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By7n3F7TXDU8VWZoWTlmaUdTdkE/view?usp=sharing

I then made a series of marks on the fuel injection pump (FIP) casing and timing cover, alternating between scribed using a bradawl and also a permanent marker so I had a crude gauge.

View attachment 70620

I completely loosened the nut on the bottom of the bracket on the rear of the FIP and slacked the front 2 nuts. What followed was an incredibly frustrating few hours of tapping the pump towards the engine to reduce modulation, tightening the front 2 buts, starting and warming, taking a trace and then tapping it back the other way to increase the modulation again. It seemed to either sit in the eighties or sit in the teens and refuse to stay anywhere in-between. A couple of example traces and photos of position are below. All done with air-conditioning off.

(3) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By7n3F7TXDU8MjZNbDFxdVJrc2M/view?usp=sharing
View attachment 70621
(4) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By7n3F7TXDU8bjdqRTZEem9fc00/view?usp=sharing

I then decided to be a little risky and leave the engine running while tapping the pump. Fortunately a neighbour had come out to show solidarity at this stage so I got him to sit in the car calling out readings with instructions to kill the ignition if anything looked at all out of control. What we observed had both of us foxed. If I left the pump at 11% modulation it seems to stay there. If I leave it around 83% it seems to stay there. If I leave it anywhere in-between, say 30% and lock it off, it stays at 30% for a short time and then creeps up to the eighties. If I put the air-conditioning on then the modulation rises, if I switch it off the modulation falls again.

(5) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By7n3F7TXDU8ZEZlS0w0UzRFLVU/view?usp=sharing
View attachment 70622

After much mucking about I decided to call it a day. I got the modulatation on 40%, tightened everything up, put the manifold back on and then went for a drive. No difference as far as I could see. Once back I parked up and took a final trace (6): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By7n3F7TXDU8WUk1TnZ6a1k1dXM/view?usp=sharing
View attachment 70623

Here it gets really weird. Everytime I put the air-con off the modulation drops into the 30s. Switch it on and it rises back up to 84% - pretty back where we started the day, even though the final position of the pump has clearly moved towards the engine. Similarly, if I rev the engine or drive for a bit and then stop and let it idle, the modulation one more drops back to the 30s / 40s but then slowly creeps back up until once more it sits in the early 80s.

I cannot get my head around this. Surely if it was mechanical then it'd just stay where it is? Which makes me suspect some sort of electrickery is somehow pushing it towards the stable values of either 80% (or 10% when the pump is turned more towards the engine). My feeling is that there's more than one thing affecting this and I don't have all the pieces of the puzzle yet.

Unfortunately I'm the sort of person who never reads manuals. I tend to work things out from first principle or ask someone and work it out from there. However, I'm getting the horrible feeling that I'm going to have to dig out as much as I can on the EDC module, the workings of the FIP and that mysterious hot-start fix that is fitted and try and map all the interdependencies because I just cannot get a model in my head that feels right at the moment. Unfortunately time is my enemy there, although admittedly there might be more of that if I hadn't been so busy marinating my brain in Chiltern Black ale last night!

Hope that's of interest to Brian / whoever.

J
Click to expand...

First step is to remove the hot start fix IMO, if it's faulty it could affect things.
 
To be fair it does now seem to be starting a little better. Did another trace today after driving home. Started at 40% and crept up to the eighties after a couple of minutes standing on the drive. maybe the slope confuses it?!
 
wammers said:
What are the set point and actual injection point degrees when this happens at idle warm engine?
Click to expand...

Both setpoint and actual appear to be near enough 1.8.

Has behaved itself flawlessly since. It only seems to happen on seriously hot days. Last summer was the last time.

The day it acted up the fuel temperature was showing a stable 71 degrees C. Not the hottest I've ever recorded but up there with the highest values.
 
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