you Brits are f***ed

Lee_D wrote:

> If there was a bobby on my shift only churning out 10 arrests a year then
> there would be some serious questions being asked even without such
> technology.

So you're going to go by numbers to judge an officer's performance.
Perhaps some officers are better at their jobs than others and can
integrate, talk to the public in a polite and civil manner and help
avoid arrests. But you're going to stop that because their heavy
handed pals are locking up groups of protestors by the dozen therefore
making their arrest record look, those officers who are good at their
jobs are going to be pulled up because they managed to get the
ringleader. Man, someone's thought this through well. Machines are
soo good at sorting these situations out, aren't they?

> 10 Arrests...pah!

Spoken like a man that's never been wrongfully accused and treated by
police officers in a way that I wouldn't treat a dog. Not me, someone
I know well. It really scares me to think that a serving police
officer would take such a light view of arrests. I know we're pretty
much in the EU already with all the nastiness therein (and the day we
join the EU, goodbye to uk members in alt.fan.landrover) please
remember two words next time you think about arresting someone -
"habeas corpus"

Tell the serfs to focus on the right people, not numbers!

Regards

William MacLeod

Peter <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz funny
about:
> The real problem is the number of ****s (and many obviously drive Land
> Rovers judging by some of the responses here) to this very serious
> matter of loss of civil liberty. Why did we bother with the 2nd
> German war? We are now getting the Nazi style government by general
> consent!!! Wake up and smell the jack boots!!!

But it's only an issue regards the civil liberty of criminals, what about
the civil liberty of the victims of those criminal?. Wrongfull convictions
are a different kettle of fish and happen across the globe.

To liken our situation to that of persons in the 2nd world war clearly
demonstrates a lack of understanding. It appears on the face of it to be a
knee jerk reply to provoke mass comment based on opinion, perhaphs trolling?

****s come in all shapes and sizes as you no doubt are aware, I don't think
any landrover owners would argue that.

Lee

[email protected] <[email protected]> uttered summat
worrerz funny about:

> So you're going to go by numbers to judge an officer's performance.

In part yes, numbers are easy to qualntify but only a small part of the big
picture.

> Perhaps some officers are better at their jobs than others and can
> integrate, talk to the public in a polite and civil manner and help
> avoid arrests.

Indeed, but 90 of them?

> But you're going to stop that because their heavy
> handed pals are locking up groups of protestors by the dozen therefore
> making their arrest record look,

No, personally I've never locked up a protestor, In 12 Years I've never been
accused of assaulting a person during arrest either. Your making an
assumption that theres a natural attraction to locking up protestors to bump
up numbers I think. I said in the origional reply my arrests in the period
measured were in the main "Priority" crime suspects.Protestors aren't a
priority for the Public at large, Indeed I spent 5 days away from home last
year ensuring Protestors could exercise their right to protest in a
different country. Hope that clarifies that at least.

>those officers who are good at their
> jobs are going to be pulled up because they managed to get the
> ringleader. Man, someone's thought this through well. Machines are
> soo good at sorting these situations out, aren't they?

No officers I'm aware of get paid per item. What would be an issue would be
if one officer is making 10 arrests and the rest of the shift 100 in a year.
That would lead me to examine why.. though normally I'm pleased to say it's
because they have been office bound for a period of that year, or sick, or
on maternity leave for example. Some are less confrontational which can lead
to them not being ascertive enough to perform their appointment, this is an
issue.

>
>> 10 Arrests...pah!
>
> Spoken like a man that's never been wrongfully accused

Wrong, (in fact add another to the list)

> and treated by
> police officers in a way that I wouldn't treat a dog.

> Not me,

I love this bit, it's so predictable.....

> someone
> I know well.

Now I'm disappointed, no war story!

> It really scares me to think that a serving police
> officer would take such a light view of arrests.

Arrests are part of a bigger picture. My view is that the figures in the
site provided are either from a small island fortunate enough to have very
few criminals, perhaphs Balamory, or seriously made up. They could be an
average of arrests against a police forces establishment , that should be
stated in the quote though as it's very misleading to suggest that any
device would increase the average across the establishment to 100 if that is
the case.

> I know we're pretty
> much in the EU already with all the nastiness therein (and the day we
> join the EU, goodbye to uk members in alt.fan.landrover) please
> remember two words next time you think about arresting someone -
> "habeas corpus"
>

I'll ignore the politics completely as I don't do politics.

I admit I had to look this up... it's big words you see and I'm only a
bobby.

Now there are some big words in there but I think I understand that. And
your point is?
> Tell the serfs to focus on the right people, not numbers!


Is that like Priority Criminals? where the Priority is decided by the people
not the police? How do the people monitor if the Serfs are focusing on the
right people without numbers? Sticking a finger in the air to see which way
the wind is blowing is only as good as the persons it's attached to and
their Opinion. I personally as a recent victim of crime as well as a serving
officer would not care for opinions, I like to see facts.

Now I'll comment no more in this thread but am happy to continue by email,
which I'll gladly copy and paste to web space for those who feel the need.
This is after all AFL and not death.by.opinion.

Lee

Lee wrote:

> lots

Sorry Lee, looking back on that it was unjustifiably harsh on you, you
were taking what should really have gone to a CC Latimer who you may
have heard of (he wangled a new RR HSE out of his expenses - a.f.l.
link) so I'm sorry. You sound like a good cop (anyone that approves of
V8 engines can't be too politically correct!

Regards

William MacLeod

Well done Lee, while I have little to hide, I also am not inclined to help
the police, and yet also don't wish to be affected by other ppl doing
illegal deeds. Want my cake and eat it.
Personally there are parts of the justice system that are way off
balance, for example points on your licence for speeding, which if having a
licence permits you to earn your living, can result in the loss of
employment. Fair I think not. Don't get me wrong I have a clean licence, but
should the state have the power to remove some persons employment by
default?

Mother wrote:

> If anything, we've moved substantially to a culture of immediate
> guilt, where innocence has to be proved.

Which is very much the wrong way round. How can you prove a negative?

Erik-Jan Geniets wrote:

> So, Big Brother comes to life....
> Erik-Jan.

Big Brother has been here for years and is getter healthier by the day
under this government.

On or around Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:35:46 GMT, "Dad"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Well done Lee, while I have little to hide, I also am not inclined to help
>the police, and yet also don't wish to be affected by other ppl doing
>illegal deeds. Want my cake and eat it.
> Personally there are parts of the justice system that are way off
>balance, for example points on your licence for speeding, which if having a
>licence permits you to earn your living, can result in the loss of
>employment. Fair I think not. Don't get me wrong I have a clean licence, but
>should the state have the power to remove some persons employment by
>default?

there again, it takes either very silly speeding or repeated speeding to
lose yer licence, so it could be that after getting a few points you ought
to be more careful - either don't exceed the limits or don't get caught. I
reckon that having 9 points on me licence would suddenly make me very
law-abiding...

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Blue: The sky is blue for a reason. Blue light is a source of strength
and harmony in the cosmos. Create a blue light in your life by
telephoning the police
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:16:26 -0000, "Lee_D"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In the main I may add for "Priority" Crime. To those
>less in the know thats the likes of burglars and drug dealers.

Yebut there's them there stats and targits init...

Small village in Somewhereshire had no crime, then, late one Tuesday
two houses were burgled - the culprit was never found. When the stats
were released the village had a 100 percent unsolved crime rate and
house prices went down.

A local law was passed making it illegal to wear a hat on Friday
mornings. Hence, one Friday morning a raid was led on the small
village. 98 people were arrested for wearing a hat, taken before the
local Court and fined.

The next stats proved a 98 percent clean-up rate for crime and house
prices rose.

If anyone knows who the burglar was, can they ask he return my false
teeth, please?


--
Bit sad that we still, in this age of communications, have
so many folk who wear blinkers and are convinced that the
whole world is the same as their own extremely limited view
of it. Peter G Strangman Born 1937, rang-off: 1999-07-08

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:56:44 -0000, "Peter"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>The real problem is

Too many trolls, so little time...

<plonk>

I got a hard time from Manchester police for shed loads of unpaid parking fines. I told them I had never been to Manchester in my car for the period in question. Two things:

- on the one hand plod just took my word for it
- on the other, plod made no more investigations into cloned plates either


Ah, the next step is technology. Think smaller.

What you do is insert chip in back of neck. Chip linked to the grand database they are about to create with the ID cards. The ID cards are not the issue, the database is. The chip along with finger prints and iris will identify you, allow access to buildings, airports etc.

Of course, none of this would have prevented the bombings in July as the chaps were all 'clean skins' - no previous. All the database does is help the police with their investigations.....

Of course, the system will be so perfect and accurate that mistakes are impossible and the wrong person cannot be fitted up by bent cops... I shudder to think what might happen if one was to be 'mis-identified' for some serious crime. Because so many things would feed off the database, you'd have a job putting at all right with banks, insurance, etc.

How easy would it be to get the incorrect information on the database changed?

On 2006-01-12, beamendsltd <[email protected]> wrote:

> No - they *have* comitted a crime - faking. Why should they do that,
> if not to cover another crime?

10 years for trying to dodge paying car tax, I'm assuming that you'd
be happy with that? Just exactly how many prisons do you think we'd
need if we started banging people up for massive lengths of time for
trivial offences, and would you be willing to foot the tax bills to
pay for it? You'd be the first to moan about the costs I expect, then
probably propose on-the-spot hanging to reduce your tax.

> I can't see what your point is.

Ask an adult.

Another scenario, jilted lover swaps plates on ex-lovers car, reports
ex-lover to police, ex-lover goes to jail for 10 years. Sieg Heil.

> And I would say exactly the same to you, so we'll just have to agree to
> disagree. You should try living on an "estate" as I do to see what the
> real world is like, it was a huge shock getting there after the "nice",
> "comfortable" world that those who bang on about civil liberties seem
> to live in, and I used to.

Ah it's all the fault of those people in the smart houses, the ones
who pay the tax. Did you know that top-rate tax payers make up 12% of
the population but pay 60% of taxes? That's 60% of the cash this
country generates, paid by just 12% of the population. Remember that
next time you slag off people who don't live on an 'estate'.

As for me, I lived in the scummiest parts of Reading for 10 years and
was even homeless for 4 months, living in derelict houses with
boarded-up windows, no water, heating or electric. I didn't come out
goose-stepping.

I know what people at the bottom end of society are like, but most of
them were decent folk trying to scrape a living. In a world where
simply getting from A to B is getting more and more expensive, it's
going to be hard for them to stay lawful. It must be nice for you to
say that there's no excuse for being skint.

It's bad enough in the cities, but in the country (not everyone who
lives outside of a city is rich, you might be surprised to know) it's
even harder, bus services are useless, in my village they start at
10AM and finish at 4PM, taxis cost £20 a shot to the nearest town.
Locals who have no job and no car are screwed.

On Luing, the island my brother-in-law lives on, the ferry to the
mainland costs £11 per trip for a car, so many of the poorer islanders
use old derelict illegal cars to drive on the island and have their
legal cars on the mainland and row across the short bit of water or
catch the cheaper pedestrian ferry, otherwise they'd not be able to
afford to go to work. No work on the island since the slate-cutting
industry took a dive, there's no work on the farms and the fishing
industry died too. You think these people deserve 10 years in prison
of course.

But of course you know all this, as you live on an "estate", apologies
for telling you what you already know.

Stick to landies, you know something about those.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:35:46 GMT, "Dad" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I also am not inclined to help the police

I always allow myself a little giggle at this particular type of
comment. Heard it sooo many times and yet it is odd, when something
happens to the person who's said it, invariably the first call they
make will be, yep... No further comment...


--
"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one
of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being
increasingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs
In memory of Brian {Hamilton Kelly} who logged off 15th September 2005

[email protected] <[email protected]> uttered summat
worrerz funny about:

> Sorry Lee,

No problem

Lee

On 2006-01-12, Mother <"@ {mother} @"@101fc.net> wrote:

> If anyone knows who the burglar was, can they ask he return my false
> teeth, please?

I reckon it was someone in this forum, the amount of yakking that's
going on they must have worn their own out!

Get some metal ones made, then you can dispense with the tin snips.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

Mother <"@ {mother} @"@101fc.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:35:46 GMT, "Dad" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> I also am not inclined to help the police
>
> I always allow myself a little giggle at this particular type of
> comment. Heard it sooo many times and yet it is odd, when something
> happens to the person who's said it, invariably the first call they
> make will be, yep... No further comment...

Yes - the irony is inescapable, but have you ever actually needed to
employ the services of our glorious law enforcement [sic] agency?

So far as it appears from here, the police are positioning themselves as
the worlds greatest data capture agency - I'm a little surprised they're
not bidding for commercial contracts - maybe they do.

--
William Tasso

What few people realise is that in pre industrial Britain there were few
places to hide, the population was much smaller and people did not travel
much therefore if you were wandering outside of your parish you could
easily fall foul of the vagrancy laws just for being a stranger in the wrong
place in a village full of paranoid people. You could end up being whipped
from one end of the village to the other, put in the stocks, branded or
worse.

I think with this sort of thing there is safety in numbers as the average
driver is too insignificant to be noticed even when blatantly committing
repeat offences.

We have had this sort of big brother thing for a long time, look at the way
that TV licence legislation works, the assumption is that any house that
does not have a licence must contain someone who is watching TV illegally. I
recall I used to get regular reminders trying to get me to buy a second
licence when I was running a business from home, and yet still there are
people who have never been caught out using a TV illegally.

At one time you needed a licence for a radio, but that was abandoned when
people stopped buying them with the advent of cheap go anywhere transistor
radios, simply too many offenders so the law was considered unenforcable.

For me, I am pretty sure that no-one is going to clone my vehicle
succesfully, and I am quite sure I can prove whether any photo is genuinly
of my car or not, notwithstanding the need is still there to prove who was
driving if an offence is observed to have been committed.

There are plenty of ways for smart lawyers round practically everything,

Besides not all number plates will be machine readable, for instance in
heavily congested areas where traffic is bumper to bumper you won't see most
of them for the car infront or behind.

Anyway if my landie is ever stolen, at least I can have some idea of where
it has been.

Anything that drives uninsured drivers off the road has to be a good thing,
there are too many victims of hit and run accidents.


--
Larry
Series 3 rust and holes




"aghasee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0111/p01s01-woeu.html?s=itm
>
> <quote>
>
> In regional trial runs, the number of arrests per officer shot up from
> around 10 per year to 100 per year. Convictions also increased.
>
> </quote>
>
>

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:42:58 +0000, Ian Rawlings
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Stick to landies, you know something about those.

One of the nice things about Landies is their border breaking
abilities. Shame their owners forget about the Marque then go an
build new borders around religin an polytiks an stuph really, but it
passes next time the fecka develops a leak - thankfully

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 20:20:05 -0000, "William Tasso"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Yes - the irony is inescapable, but have you ever actually needed to
>employ the services of our glorious law enforcement [sic] agency?

Not employ, but I listen and evaluate their evidence as much as the
defendant or (in a growing number of cases) plaintiff.

>So far as it appears from here, the police are positioning themselves as
>the worlds greatest data capture agency

They are nowhere near, and neither will they be, _EVER_ not even the
slightest bit close - in your wildest of dreams!

Besides this (not overly paranoid as it happens) assertion, you need
to realise that it is NOT the police who are demanding extra powers,
and indeed, are somewhat concerned as to how they will devote
resources to increased expectations and responsibilities.

> - I'm a little surprised they're
>not bidding for commercial contracts - maybe they do.

The majority of forces in the UK make a fair amount of revenue from
contracted services - if they didn't, UK residents would be paying for
rock concerts and the like. your choice, Rock Steady Security also
have the same contracts - where would you prefer your money to go?

Truth is, prolly, that there are reasons to be paranoid. If you're
not, you're not paying enough attention. The police aren't your
worry, though, they only do as the rest of us are free to do;

Exactly as we're told.

--

I had to pay 50 Dollars and pick up the garbage.

Larry wrote:
>
> Besides not all number plates will be machine readable, for instance
> in heavily congested areas where traffic is bumper to bumper you
> won't see most of them for the car infront or behind.

Within ten years the Galileo satellite system will render optical technology
redundant. Everyone will be mapped and charged in real time all the time.


>
> Anyway if my landie is ever stolen, at least I can have some idea of
> where it has been.
>
> Anything that drives uninsured drivers off the road has to be a good
> thing, there are too many victims of hit and run accidents.
>

I may be wrong but I don't think many hit and run drivers get away
undetected these days. Also uninsured drivers have now been dealt with along
with untaxed vehicles.
The erosion of civil liberty from the loss of motoring privacy and freedom
from being spied on is just part of a bigger picture which is no problem as
long as the Government is benign and benevolent. The easier it is for the
powers that be to regulate the population then the higher the temptation for
any Government to try to use those powers for their own end. The American
constitution allows its citizens to bear arms partly for that particular
reason, so they can defend themselves from a malevolent central power. We
should never take our liberty for granted as once it is lost it is extremely
costly to regain. Just look at the state of a lot of countries coming out of
oppressive government around the globe today.

Huw