P38A V8 Problem: Turner Engineering: 20k miles: Broken timing chain

I wonder if Turner Engineering are going off the boil. I ask because I have just had a very bad experience with a "stripped" (i.e. a block fully assembled with heads, cam and rockers etc.) 4.6 Thor V8 failing after 20k miles and just outside the 12 month warranty. This engine needs no assembly - just bolting in with ancillaries and fluids. Didn't they used to offer a 3 year warranty? Why now only 12 months I wonder?

The engine hasn't yet been stripped down but a shattered front cover casing around the oil pump casting is not a good sign. Everything points to some sort of assembly issue with the block or oil pump (Bought from Turner's with the remanufactured engine). Whilst Turner have not completely walked away from the problem with vague promises of help with some parts, they are certainly not standing by their product in the way I would expect the premium, high costs supplier in the market to do - this is a nearly £4,000 product after all! Re-manufactured engines can be had elsewhere for half that.

I'm looking at the car effectively now being written off.

Interestingly, my garage gained the impression on the phone that Turner's now outsource re-manufacture of V8 engines despite the contrary appearing on their website.

I can't help thinking they are not the go-to people for LR engines anymore. I certainly won't be going to them again.

EDIT: 18 January 2017. Now sump is off to take a proper look. Timing chain and oil pump are broken. These came pre-assembled from Turner's and my (very good) mechanic had no need to touch them. Interference engine so valves will have contacted pistons with all the usual dire consequences for the rest of the engine. Make your own assumptions about who is to blame for the failure...

EDIT: 20 January 2017. Had a long chat with Richard Turner yesterday and we've worked out a way to get the engine going again, hopefully good as new, at manageable cost.

Don't like the sound of that. I think @martynv8 might have some experience of them?

mmmm did notice myself some time back martynv8 has had some issues with his new engine,imo no comment except 4k/20,000/12 months

Indeed! Not a nice trip and failed just as the weather turned - very much missing the old thing.

Although I don't want to defend a company that has a poor product (deal with that at work all of the time), there can't be much left in RV8s to re-manufacture. They have been out of production for over 10 years and were hardly reliable lumps to begin with. I can't imagine each unit has much life left in it by this point.

Just looking at their website, if you got the engine from them, it comes with tophats, sorry "Darton Sleeves ductile iron flanged liner upgrade", they still give a 3 year warranty with their tophat blocks.

WARRANTY - All engines are supplied with a 12 months unlimited mileage written warranty, ductile iron flanged linered block casting guaranteed for a further 2 years. (details on request) together with fitting instructions. Stripped engines are supplied with fitting gaskets.

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Thanks Bix. Invoice from Turner very clearly states 12 months. I note the extra 2 years for "top-hatted" block (which mine is) is just "on the block casting" so I suppose if I find some block swarf that has wrecked the oil pump (and goodness knows what else) I might get something on that.

Agreed on the remaining stock being hard to remanufacture although I would hope decent QA processes in an ISO 9001 organisation would reject parts that can't successfully be remanufactured.

I'd taken the view (falsely as it turns out) that if it could get past 12 months without missing a beat then it would go on for a lot longer with good maintenance.

It gave no warning at all of failure. Was still warm from a run up the motorway. Went to start it later and wouldn't turn over feeling like a jammed starter. Then turned over and wouldn't fire. Then noticed a few small bits of alloy casting on the floor under the front of the engine - small hole in front cover around oil pump. Heart stops briefly and air turns very blue...

I think either the oil pump came apart or something got in there from elsewhere in the engine and jammed it. Starter had enough torque to break the oil pump casting. I can't do a decent repair without a full strip and inspection. I don't have the time to do that and its not economic on this car to pay someone else. I really expected Turner to step up, take the engine back and sort it out.

Putting this engine in first time round was never an economic prospect. I have no appetite for spending more than the car's worth a second time around to fix it. Lovely example but practically worthless without a running engine. I think my P38 days are over.

albany said:

Thanks Bix. Invoice from Turner very clearly states 12 months. I note the extra 2 years for "top-hatted" block (which mine is) is just "on the block casting" so I suppose if I find some block swarf that has wrecked the oil pump (and goodness knows what else) I might get something on that.

Agreed on the remaining stock being hard to remanufacture although I would hope decent QA processes in an ISO 9001 organisation would reject parts that can't successfully be remanufactured.

I'd taken the view (falsely as it turns out) that if it could get past 12 months without missing a beat then it would go on for a lot longer with good maintenance.

It gave no warning at all of failure. Was still warm from a run up the motorway. Went to start it later and wouldn't turn over feeling like a jammed starter. Then turned over and wouldn't fire. Then noticed a few small bits of alloy casting on the floor under the front of the engine - small hole in front cover around oil pump. Heart stops briefly and air turns very blue...

I think either the oil pump came apart or something got in there from elsewhere in the engine and jammed it. Starter had enough torque to break the oil pump casting. I can't do a decent repair without a full strip and inspection. I don't have the time to do that and its not economic on this car to pay someone else. I really expected Turner to step up, take the engine back and sort it out.

Putting this engine in first time round was never an economic prospect. I have no appetite for spending more than the car's worth a second time around to fix it. Lovely example but practically worthless without a running engine. I think my P38 days are over.

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ISO 90001 is just a paperwork exercise. It means they keep good records, sod all to do with the quality of a product. It is basically a con trick.

wammers said:

ISO 90001 is just a paperwork exercise. It means they keep good records, sod all to do with the quality of a product. It is basically a con trick.

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plus 1 ,though it should mean that the source of any spurious parts ,date of purchase and fitting etc is known

jamesmartin said:

plus 1 ,though it should mean that the source of any spurious parts ,date of purchase and fitting etc is known

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Britpart are ISO 9001 accredited. Read what you want to from that. It means very little and is just a con trick. If people are using it as a warranty of quality products they will be sadly disappointed in some cases.

I had a similar fault with a customers car many years back.The engine was a genuine unit from LR which I had fitted,also failed just out of warranty...
Turner Engineering don't make those front covers,neither do LR,all can be subject to failure.This is one of the problems of putting large amounts of money into a car that wasn't worth it and was a crap engine to start with.

Sorry to hear of your problem, not an auspicious start to the New Year. For my part the only RV8 I have any real confidence in is the 3.5 but that's another story.
It's worth bearing in mind that a warranty does not effect your legal rights, goods sold have to be fit for purpose etc. & I doubt that engine failure in 20k would fit the description, so it might be worth seeking advice from Trading Standards.

norseman said:

I doubt that engine failure in 20k would fit the description, so it might be worth seeking advice from Trading Standards.

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Yes, it doesn't seem right does it? Not ready to let this go just yet.

eightinavee said:

This is one of the problems of putting large amounts of money into a car that wasn't worth it and was a crap engine to start with.

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Indeed! But I suppose we all hope a silk purse can be made from what we have with enough skill and perseverance.

eightinavee said:

Turner Engineering don't make those front covers,neither do LR,all can be subject to failure

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Agreed, and I'm sympathetic but the front cover was sold to me by Turners and still needs to be fit for purpose. They had a choice to sell something better or not sell it at all. If they choose to sell it they should stand by it and fix any problems caused. I bought the cover from them precisely to get backup should any problems occur and avoid the old divide and conquer trick on separate suppliers. They have pretty much walked away from the problem without even knowing what has caused the failure (it's just as likely an engine failure - which they do allegedly make rather than the front cover).

I might expect that sort of response from a cheapy back-street operation but not from an expensive outfit presenting themselves as "as the market leader world-wide in the re-manufacture of Land Rover engines for the Series, Defender, Discovery, Range Rover, Freelander, and associated components." and stating boldly that "Engines carrying our label are recognised the world over as being of the highest quality."

I wonder what exactly do you get from the significant extra costs from Turner's? I accept that sometimes problems happen even with the best organisations, but the good ones sort it out. I sought help privately before posting here, but effectively got the brush off. I think potential future customers should know what they can expect if they too experience problems.

albany said:

Thanks Bix. Invoice from Turner very clearly states 12 months. I note the extra 2 years for "top-hatted" block (which mine is) is just "on the block casting" so I suppose if I find some block swarf that has wrecked the oil pump (and goodness knows what else) I might get something on that.

Agreed on the remaining stock being hard to remanufacture although I would hope decent QA processes in an ISO 9001 organisation would reject parts that can't successfully be remanufactured.

I'd taken the view (falsely as it turns out) that if it could get past 12 months without missing a beat then it would go on for a lot longer with good maintenance.

It gave no warning at all of failure. Was still warm from a run up the motorway. Went to start it later and wouldn't turn over feeling like a jammed starter. Then turned over and wouldn't fire. Then noticed a few small bits of alloy casting on the floor under the front of the engine - small hole in front cover around oil pump. Heart stops briefly and air turns very blue...

I think either the oil pump came apart or something got in there from elsewhere in the engine and jammed it. Starter had enough torque to break the oil pump casting. I can't do a decent repair without a full strip and inspection. I don't have the time to do that and its not economic on this car to pay someone else. I really expected Turner to step up, take the engine back and sort it out.

Putting this engine in first time round was never an economic prospect. I have no appetite for spending more than the car's worth a second time around to fix it. Lovely example but practically worthless without a running engine. I think my P38 days are over.

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Aye righto, the website is so poorly worded, almost every page has a different blerb out the warrranty.

I don't put much weight behind re-manufactured engines. They are a toss up if you get a good one or not. We get a lot of re-manufactured 300TDIs through the workshop and the ones made in the last 2 years have been absolute trash. We had one that was about 2 weeks old go completely sideways.. It had a crank pulley that was the original design (didn't have the guide lips, should've been replaced years ago), they'd clearly recycled the cambelt, huge play in the turbo, and the alternator was pretending to be an electromagnet (we get a complete powerpack ready to plug in and go). Get the feeling they only replace what it went in for and don't check anything else, paint them green and call it a day. Absolute garbage workmanship, but I guess they gotta reduce overheads somehow.

I imagine a lot of V8 P38s are going to visit the scrap yard in the sky because the engines are going the way of the Dodo. LS swap it! They are cheap, robust, fit nicely. Overfinch did it, so it can't be too bad of an option.

Bix said:

Aye righto, the website is so poorly worded, almost every page has a different blerb out the warrranty.

I don't put much weight behind re-manufactured engines. They are a toss up if you get a good one or not. We get a lot of re-manufactured 300TDIs through the workshop and the ones made in the last 2 years have been absolute trash. We had one that was about 2 weeks old go completely sideways.. It had a crank pulley that was the original design (didn't have the guide lips, should've been replaced years ago), they'd clearly recycled the cambelt, huge play in the turbo, and the alternator was pretending to be an electromagnet (we get a complete powerpack ready to plug in and go). Get the feeling they only replace what it went in for and don't check anything else, paint them green and call it a day. Absolute garbage workmanship, but I guess they gotta reduce overheads somehow.

I imagine a lot of V8 P38s are going to visit the scrap yard in the sky because the engines are going the way of the Dodo. LS swap it! They are cheap, robust, fit nicely. Overfinch did it, so it can't be too bad of an option.

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its down to money ,and the fact obselete engines dont have numerous parts manufacturers to chose from,poor parts isnt poor workmanship its just life now

If you're in converstaion with them is a good thing.
Keep at them & try & get the vehicle to them to look at. Once it's under their noses the attitudes change. They have a reputation & they need to either confidently explain why it's not their problem that's acceptable to you or they need to strip this engine. It's one or the other.,

Bix said:

I imagine a lot of V8 P38s are going to visit the scrap yard in the sky because the engines are going the way of the Dodo. LS swap it! They are cheap, robust, fit nicely. Overfinch did it, so it can't be too bad of an option.

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A guy on RR.net did it but not sure how straight-forward it was. The diesel and Thor are easier as they're more of a cut and shut job and not tied into the BECM as much. Guess you need some kind of adaptor plate making up?

Someone was on here a while back asking about putting a Jaguar XJ8 engine in. I'd love to see that happen as I have one (albeit in the Jag but the Jag is oxidising and I cannot see it lasting as long as the Rangie) and may look to swap it one day. Of course, there's all the ECU gubbins from the Jag that would need fettling as well as the BECM so maybe more hassle than it is worth - assuming it even fits.

Rick-the-Pick said:

If you're in converstaion with them is a good thing.
Keep at them & try & get the vehicle to them to look at. Once it's under their noses the attitudes change. They have a reputation & they need to either confidently explain why it's not their problem that's acceptable to you or they need to strip this engine. It's one or the other.,

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+1 well said tbh anyone with a good reputation in buisness will bend over backwards for his/her customers even if it involves loss financially,in buisness the customer is always right ... ( but not always).... imo you just swallow it as keeping your rep is a must, 1 happy customer will recomend you to his/her family & friends,1 unhappy customer will tell the world

I would be tempted to get the engine stripped by an independent engineer so that he can send in an official report. To fail after 20k is simply not good enough tbh for any recon never mind supposedly top flight ones.
I would have thought that, purely for quality control purposes, they would want this engine back just to find out what has let go after such a low mileage.
Lets hope that this ends well for the OP.

Fergie46 said:

I would be tempted to get the engine stripped by an independent engineer so that he can send in an official report. To fail after 20k is simply not good enough tbh for any recon never mind supposedly top flight ones.
.

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Fergie, yes that's my plan. Being done at the moment and maybe when complete and I have another discussion with Turner's things will look better.
I won't clog the thread up with the details, but this engine was installed, run-in and maintained and used super carefully. That's not to say it didn't get well-used - just not abused. It really shouldn't have failed so quickly.
Thanks for all your support - it really does help.