Classic Timming problem

marjon · Jan 20, 2022

tomcat59alan said:
Isn't it so much easier when it's in front of you.

everything is

But if it was in front of you it would be the right side if you were stood in front looking in the bonnet

As I said way up there^^^^ it’s one of those things that is so easy when you know. But sometimes difficult to teach in words, need visual hands on and it suddenly clicks

J

tomcat59alan · Jan 20, 2022

marjon said:
everything is
But if it was in front of you it would be the right side if you were stood in front looking in the bonnet

As I said way up there^^^^ it’s one of those things that is so easy when you know. But sometimes difficult to teach in words, need visual hands on and it suddenly clicks

J

So true.

Shippers · Jan 20, 2022

marjon said:
Make sure it’s the compression TDC ( hence the valve rocking/slack) and not the exhaust TDC

J

If the number 1 piston is at TDC doesnt matter what valves are doing but if roter arm is not pointing to number 1 lead on dizzy cap then you have a problem..
By the way sorted coolant leak on van was a leaking core plug which was only apparant after thermostat opened we had them in stock in the garage so only a 2 hour job and replaced both cost 5€ but as sods law go a breather pipe I moved perished and it's a Y shaped moulded pipe...fitted new one yesterday a swine of a job on a 1.8tdi...so will update you on winch soon...

marjon · Jan 20, 2022

Shippers said:
If the number 1 piston is at TDC doesnt matter what valves are doing but if roter arm is not pointing to number 1 lead on dizzy cap then you have a problem..

Is it “wasted spark” I don’t know?
I do it old school. Compression stroke TDC

J

Shippers · Jan 20, 2022

marjon said:
Is it “wasted spark” I don’t know?
I do it old school. Compression stroke TDC

J

No not wasted spark...old school is screw driver down spark plug hole and see where rotor arm is pointing to spark plug lead position on dizzy cap...never had a problem doing it this way...wasted sparks are on coil packs I think...

tomcat59alan · Jan 21, 2022

Shippers said:
No not wasted spark...old school is screw driver down spark plug hole and see where rotor arm is pointing to spark plug lead position on dizzy cap...never had a problem doing it this way...wasted sparks are on coil packs I think...

Is it offset D or toothed dizzy drive,I can't remember? Sounds like the rotor isn't pointing to number 1 when it's at TDC on the compression stroke or he's timing it TDC on the exhaust stroke.

marjon · Jan 21, 2022

The last time on here recently, we went through all the same talk.
The OP was getting the same not quite firing he double checked the leads to find that he had them wrong and it fired up

.
Worth a double check of the plug lead order I wonder

.

J

Oh and now sober

don’t know why I mentioned wasted spark when it’s got a distributor

.

pwood999 · Jan 21, 2022

smudge67999 said:
Were im going wrong or confused about. Is am i right the x2 number 1 valves are at the front of the engine on number 1 cylinder located looking from front of engine right handside rocker .also i have rotated engine till the i let valve goes down then comes up fully then the nu.ber 1 piston is at top and the mark on bottom pulley aligns. If i continue to turn crank in clockwise direction to get the 2 valves rocking the timming marks would be way out.so am i on the right track .at the moment its trying to start but just wont catch .

If you get to TDC and both valves are not closed fully, then you're probably on the wrong stroke. Make sure you identify which is inlet & exhaust.

Inlet starts to close 73deg before TDC, and Exhaust opens 70deg before BDC (or 110deg after TDC). Therefore you should have an obvious part of crank rotation where both are closed.

Table below was found on Landyzone using a google search !! Cannot vouch for the accuracy.

smudge67999 · Jan 21, 2022

pwood999 said:
If you get to TDC and both valves are not closed fully, then you're probably on the wrong stroke. Make sure you identify which is inlet & exhaust.

Inlet starts to close 73deg before TDC, and Exhaust opens 70deg before BDC (or 110deg after TDC). Therefore you should have an obvious part of crank rotation where both are closed.

Table below was found on Landyzone using a google search !! Cannot vouch for the accuracy.

View attachment 257299

Hi so had another go .i put screw driver down number 1 hole.brought piston up untill rotor was pointing to number 1 on cap. I pulled distrubutor and aligned tdc mark with the pointer on bottom pulley .put dizzy back in. Went to try it and it was nearly catching .so adjusted dizzy slightly tried again and bingo fired up spluttering a bit so i adjusted dizzy anticlock wise to get smooth revs was running lovely .so i then turned it off pinched up clamp plate and tightened all plugs up.went bk to restart bk to sqaure one turning over and trying to fire up just wont have it doing the same tryed moving dizzy and its just trying to fire up flattened battery in the end.cant understand how it fired up ran sweet and bk to were i was. Got fuel good spark its like the timming has moved .only thing i have not replaced is the distrubutor. I have fitted new stepper motor. Bran new maf. New ignition amplifier on side of dizzy .new cap and rotor. New fuel pressure regulator. New plugs leads .starter motor .fuel temp sensor new water temp sensor .and still problems

pwood999 · Jan 21, 2022

Then check the distributor for play in the bearings and loose or broken weights. Is there rotational play in the rotor arm ?

You should also consider checking if the timing chain is ok, and not randomly jumping teeth, although this is less likely. Cannot remember where the distributor drive is on these engines, if that's got play it will impact spark timing.

BTW, it's spelt "timing" not timming. The former relates to Time, whereas the latter is not a real word, and sounds like becoming a boy called "Tim".

Stanleysteamer · Jan 21, 2022

I have read all through this thread and, being old skool, cannot believe no one has simply said,
"Take a plug out, put your thumb over the hole, let someone turn the crank, (or do it yourself if you can reach) when you feel pressure on your thumb you KNOW it is on the compression stroke".
No need to look at rockers at all.

Edit, and if you can't get your thumb over the plughole use an old skool compression gauge.

Ratae · Jan 21, 2022

Take the dizzy cap off.
Look at the position of the rotor arm.
Turn it gently with your fingers until it stops & let go.
What does it do?

Is the new rotor arm one of the variety with the metal strip rivetted to the plastic or cast into the plastic?

Stanleysteamer · Jan 21, 2022

Ratae said:
Take the dizzy cap off.
Look at the position of the rotor arm.
Turn it gently with your fingers until it stops & let go.
What does it do?

Is the new rotor arm one of the variety with the metal strip rivetted to the plastic or cast into the plastic?

It IS weird that it ran for a bit but won't start again.

Stanleysteamer · Jan 21, 2022

Two problems I have had in the past that may be worth looking at,
a/ the base plate not being locked into the dizzy properly allowing it to move a bit, which kept on setting the timing off
b/ the drive shaft having play at the bottom end where the drive was pinned to the rest of the shaft, again allowing play.
But this is old skool so maybe not an issue.

smudge67999 · Jan 21, 2022

pwood999 said:
Then check the distributor for play in the bearings and loose or broken weights. Is there rotational play in the rotor arm ?

You should also consider checking if the timing chain is ok, and not randomly jumping teeth, although this is less likely. Cannot remember where the distributor drive is on these engines, if that's got play it will impact spark timing.

BTW, it's spelt "timing" not timming. The former relates to Time, whereas the latter is not a real word, and sounds like becoming a boy called "Tim".

Hi well you saying about distributor i went and orderrd a new one off ebay complete as this is tge only thing i have not renewed.also there is play in the end bit that slots into the oil pump but the rest seems to be ok

smudge67999 · Jan 27, 2022

tomcat59alan said:
Isn't it so much easier when it's in front of you.

Hi again ive now replaced the whole distrubutor bran new with the new module on side and dizzy cap rotor.and still nothing . Trying to start but just wont catch. Only thing ive forgot to mention this 3.9 has 4.2 heads fitted

Ratae · Jan 27, 2022

Tried the 'easy start' yet?

Stanleysteamer · Jan 27, 2022

As he did have it running once, it must be something he did after that that has put things wrong again.
I can't see randomly throwing new parts at it is going to fix this.

He needs to put everything back the way it was when he had it running then go on just doing one thing at a time. and if anything he does changes nothing, then put that thing back the way it was.
That way he'll find the one thing that is wrong.
Changing multiple stuff will just deepen the hole he is in.

Stanleysteamer · Jan 27, 2022

smudge67999 said:
Hi again ive now replaced the whole distrubutor bran new with the new module on side and dizzy cap rotor.and still nothing . Trying to start but just wont catch. Only thing ive forgot to mention this 3.9 has 4.2 heads fitted

So there was nothing wrong with the original dizzy, as know, from the STARTING point of view. You just have a problem with it going beyond tickover, and that now doesn't seem to be to do with the new distributor either.
I take it the plugs are all gapped correctly?

smudge67999 · Jan 27, 2022

Stanleysteamer said:
So there was nothing wrong with the original dizzy, as know, from the STARTING point of view. You just have a problem with it going beyond tickover, and that now doesn't seem to be to do with the new distributor either.
I take it the plugs are all gapped correctly?

Classic Timming problem

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