Freelander 1 TD4 cranking but not starting (also, Southampton/Fareham)

Hi guys,

Thanks for your help with the VCU-change advice last week - that's all sorted, but now I have a new problem :-(

For the last couple of months I've noticed the car taking a bit longer to start, but nothing too drastic. Then over the last few days it has ceased to start at all. Not a battery problem, it turns over strongly, but doesn't fire.

The glow-plug light on the dash lights for the normal amount of time, then goes out. The wheel-arch fuel pump is whirring away as normal.

I found mention of the "injector leak test" as described here, but couldn't see any diesel rising in the tops of the injectors. My first attempt at clamping the disconnected hose wasn't very successful, resulting in diesel flowing pretty freely out of the T-pieces - I don't know whether that's normal or significant?

I've been able to get it going a couple of times using Easy-Start (which obviously I dislike doing). Once running, it runs smoothly. There's a little white smoke/vapour in the exhaust, but that could be normal for a cold morning, I don't normally look. Certainly nothing excessive. If stopped, it will restart ok at least within the next hour.

I need the car to get to work, so after the injector test came up with nothing I decided it was time to take it to a garage. However, my local LR specialist is always booked up for weeks in advance, and the diesel place someone recommended also can't look at it for at least seven days. Hence the mention of Southampton (home) and Fareham (work) in the subject - perhaps any local LZers can recommend a place?

In the meantime, any other suggestions for things to try are welcome.

Thanks,

Pete

Sounds like camshaft sensor ...

Have a read up: https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/td4-slow-to-start.197406/

Could also be a leak back, causing an unequal pressure across the 4 injectors, causing it to fail to start ...

Dippypud said:

Sounds like camshaft sensor ...

Have a read up: https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/td4-slow-to-start.197406/

Click to expand...

Thanks - but a couple of things there don't quite match:
1. It says worse when hot, whereas mine is the opposite. Once the engine is warm, it starts ok.
2. It talks about the engine stopping once the EasyStart is consumed, whereas mine keeps going.

Are these essential characteristics of a camshaft fault?

Pete

Dippypud said:

Could also be a leak back, causing an unequal pressure across the 4 injectors, causing it to fail to start ...

Click to expand...

Is that different to the leak-back test I already did?

Pete

Pete_TD4 said:

Thanks - but a couple of things there don't quite match:
1. It says worse when hot, whereas mine is the opposite. Once the engine is warm, it starts ok.
2. It talks about the engine stopping once the EasyStart is consumed, whereas mine keeps going.

Are these essential characteristics of a camshaft fault?

Pete

Click to expand...

Did you read all of the thread ?

Depends on what you did....

"Remove engine cover to access the injectors. The small bore flexi pipes that link across the injector tops are the "leak off" or "spill pipes" that return fuel back to the tank when the engine is running. BUT with the ignition on but engine NOT started the low pressure fuel pump/s build up pressure in the injectors and NO fuel should be returning via these pipes.
Prepare to test; pull out the spring clip which secures the "T" piece on each injector and carefully lift out each plastic "T". Don't try to pull the pipes from the T because they will snap off and are difficult to come by. With all four disconnected clamp the pipe before the first T piece where it comes up in front of the engine to prevent fuel coming back up the pipe from other locations.
To test simply turn on the ignition (don't start) and check for fuel emitting from the injector tops. Any that leak need to be replaced as this is where fuel pressure required for initial starting is being lost."

Dippypud said:

Did you read all of the thread ?

Click to expand...

I skipped the EGR stuff, I already have mine bypassed. But his testing of the camshaft sensor involved freezing it to make it work, whereas in a warm engine it did not. Mine is the other way round, it works when the engine's warm but not when it's cold.

Pete

Dippypud said:

Depends on what you did....

"Remove engine cover to access the injectors.[...]

Click to expand...

Yep, those are the exact instructions I linked to

Pete

Pete_TD4 said:

Yep, those are the exact instructions I linked to

Pete

Click to expand...

In that case it's probably a good idea to start saving up for a set of re-con injectors ... sorry mate ... I'm sure a grown up will be along soon to answer your query properly ...

Could it just be glow plugs? Don't if there's a warning light for failure but the light on the dash normally just means a supply is going to the plugs, not that the plugs are actually working.

Dippypud said:

In that case it's probably a good idea to start saving up for a set of re-con injectors

Click to expand...

So we think the injectors might be faulty in a different way to what the leak-off test shows up?
I've seen some "re-con" injectors on eBay for pretty good prices - but maybe the only reconditioning they got was a quick wash...?

Pete

SpringDon said:

Could it just be glow plugs? Don't if there's a warning light for failure but the light on the dash normally just means a supply is going to the plugs, not that the plugs are actually working.

Click to expand...

It's a thought. I wonder if there's a way to put a multimeter on the circuit and see what current it's pulling? Unfortunately I don't have a clamp meter I can just put round a wire...

Pete

I have no knowledge of freelanders (as you may be able to tell) but on other motors you can pull the plugs then connect them across a battery to check that they get redhot. (If you try that, do not hold them by the hot end)

Check the HPFP regulator as sometime the O-rings can wear thus you get low pressure, fix is about £5.99 and about an hour of your own time to rectify. it could even be the fue pump is not working as it should, fuel filter, when were these last checked or changed,

Link to regulator O-rings
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332113324209?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Arctic2 said:

Check the HPFP regulator as sometime the O-rings can wear thus you get low pressure, fix is about £5.99 and about an hour of your own time to rectify.

Click to expand...

Thanks - I'll have a look if I can't get it into a garage right away (at the moment the priority is getting a working car one way or the other). Is it hard to get to?

Arctic2 said:

it could even be the fue pump is not working as it should, fuel filter, when were these last checked or changed,

Click to expand...

The low pressure pump died about three years ago. I replaced it with a cheap pattern part, which I kind of regret as it's pretty noisy, but I don't think that's the problem here. It sounds no different to usual, and the diesel ****ing out of the leak-off hose when I didn't clamp it hard enough shows that plenty of fuel is reaching the engine.
The car got a service from a trustworthy LR specialist maybe 18 months ago; I assume they changed any filter that needed changing. The sedimenter under the wheel arch looked pretty clean back when I changed the pump.
If there was a fuel supply problem I'd expect to see some effect when driving, but once started it runs smoothly and accelerates up to motorway speed exactly as normal. It's only a starting problem.

Pete

Changing the O-rings is not to hard, takes about an hour removed the starter motor first, then you get access to the two torx bolts remove these and the regulator will come away check and change the O-rings even if they look ok as they will go sooner or later, while you are at it clean the starter motor contact single wire connector you could even do that first see what happens.

Pete_TD4 said:

Thanks - I'll have a look if I can't get it into a garage right away (at the moment the priority is getting a working car one way or the other). Is it hard to get to?



The low pressure pump died about three years ago. I replaced it with a cheap pattern part, which I kind of regret as it's pretty noisy, but I don't think that's the problem here. It sounds no different to usual, and the diesel ****ing out of the leak-off hose when I didn't clamp it hard enough shows that plenty of fuel is reaching the engine.
The car got a service from a trustworthy LR specialist maybe 18 months ago; I assume they changed any filter that needed changing. The sedimenter under the wheel arch looked pretty clean back when I changed the pump.
If there was a fuel supply problem I'd expect to see some effect when driving, but once started it runs smoothly and accelerates up to motorway speed exactly as normal. It's only a starting problem.

Pete

Click to expand...

"Diesel ****ing out... plenty of fuel is reaching the engine" - this is good common sense diagnostics, but remember this isn't a rotary-pump Perkins - the Td4 has quite a complex fuelling and injection set-up. If you're not getting good pump pressure (upwards of 350 kPa) then you'll get exactly the symptoms you describe. The on-road performance may start to suffer later.

A cheap, noisy three year-old LP pump would be my first point of suspicion here. Also, a cranking leakback test on the injectors would be more revealing.

Check the glowplug resistances - measure ohms from terminal to earth. My new ones read about 1 ohm. Also check voltage present during key on.

As said, the HP regulator O-ring is worth replacing.

guineafowl21 said:

good common sense diagnostics, but remember this isn't a rotary-pump Perkins

Click to expand...

Heh, guilty as charged - I'm mostly a boat guy, not cars, and old-fashioned Perkins lumps are quite common boat engines

guineafowl21 said:

Also, a cranking leakback test on the injectors would be more revealing.

Click to expand...

Ok - so disconnect the return hoses as before, but this time crank the engine instead of just turning on the power?
I'm not going to be able to watch them as I actually turn the key, presumably ok to quickly look afterwards and see if any have filled up?

guineafowl21 said:

Check the glowplug resistances - measure ohms from terminal to earth. My new ones read about 1 ohm. Also check voltage present during key on. As said, the HP regulator O-ring is worth replacing.

Click to expand...

Thanks for a few more things to look at. I've just driven out from the office to lunch and back, and since it's fairly warm here today and the engine might still have been warm from the drive in, it didn't light the lamp to ask for glow plugs. It then started immediately on turning the key. This tends to make me think the glow plugs are the problem - though maybe that's just wishful thinking since they seem easy to fix

Pete

On cranking, they'll all leak back. Point is to measure how equal they are - if one is hogging fuel pressure, starting may become difficult as the whole rail pressure will be too low. Have a search on here for leakback test - the principle is the same but you need to attach pipes to the injector spill spigots and feed these to four measuring cylinders or syringes.

Regarding glow plugs, they are certainly worth a check but unless conditions are extreme a modern engine such as the Td4 will still start. I bought our FL with only one working glow plug and it still started in freezing conditions. A bit farty and smoky, but it started.

If you must remove the glow plugs, soak them well in WD40 first and use a 1/4" ratchet so you can't apply too much torque. They break off for a pastime. Turn them very gradually, going forwards and backwards and reapplying WD40 regularly.