Freelander 1 Inter-cooler options for L series (TD5 ?)

Personally, I don't believe using the AC to cool the air is beneficial, as the drop in HP caused by engaging the AC would negate any increase.
It was mentioned earlier that raiding the Jap parts bin might help. If you look at some Mitsubushi and Toyota intercooler installations the unit is on top of the engine. Always thought this was a bit odd due to the heat creep from the engine, but it must work or they wouldn't do it.
There's more room on top of an L over the td4, so sticking a second intercooler there makes sense. Obviously, you'd need to cut a big hole in the bonnet and put an air scoop on it, like a defender boost bonnet. But that should push enough air over the second or 1 larger intercooler to get closer to the air cooling/density required.
Would love to see a freelander running around with a dirty big scoop on the bonnet, that would be a sight.
With a bit of ingenuity and flexible pipe, you could even make it rise with the bonnet so it's out of the way when you wish to work on the engine.
Mike

GrumpyGel said:

So rather than going to the Rover parts bin for a duplicate IC, why not raid it for an AC? Take out the IC and a lot of piping, and stick an Air Conditioner into the circuit?

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Same as lotus carlton that gets cold enough to put frost on the manifold even when the engines hot!

Skinny Mike said:

Always thought this was a bit odd due to the heat creep from the engine, but it must work or they wouldn't do it.

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I think if the heat radiating above the engine is anywhere near the temp coming out of the turbo - the engine has serious issues!

Skinny Mike said:

Personally, I don't believe using the AC to cool the air is beneficial, as the drop in HP caused by engaging the AC would negate any increase.

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...Only if the extra oxygen in the cylinder didn't allow enough extra fuel to be burnt to negate the AC compressor drain, of course, but yes, there's probably a reason it isn't done.

Thinking about it, it wouldn't be THAT complicated - an extra expansion valve and evaporator inside the intake tract. But then, you'd need somewhere for the moisture to drain away if the air gets cold enough.

Intercooler on the engine and air scoop get my vote!

GrumpyGel said:

I think if the heat radiating above the engine is anywhere near the temp coming out of the turbo - the engine has serious issues!

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+1 the intercooler and turbo are fitted together, because the boosted air is hot from the turbo and has been compressed, so is even hotter. So, the intercooler is really fitted to correct the high-temp-low-density air back to somwhere near atmospheric values, rather than cool it below.

Interesting discussion - the increase in air temp from the ''perfect' compressor running - say 20 psi.... - if we work on a reasonable 'guesstimate' figure (from VERY reliable sources!) of - say - 85 - 90 (let's call it 90c) degrees c and taking into consideration turbo efficiency (very hard to get reasonable figures for that!) - lets presume 70% - this is turbo - not IC - then the outlet air temp is going to be - for arguments sake - 130c (ish) - so add the ambient air temp - say 25c - so we now have a working hypothetical figure of 155c.. (Actual increase over ambient)

Ok, now we add in the inter-cooler - with an approx (relatively normal - efficiency of - say 75%) -

If the IC was 100% efficient it would drop the temps to ambient - but it is not - so our hypothetical temperature reduction figure becomes (with an IC efficiency of 75%) - our actual inlet air temp (not accounting for inter- cooler 'restriction' losses) is hypothetically now apx 130 - 79 = 51c.....(+ ambient !)
This is a reasonable estimate of actual IAT at the engine...... (rough and ready but .. a guide for this example .
Sooooooooooo.... increase the efficiency of the intercooler by 5% - and the figure becomes 46c.(+ Ambient of course)
Now, that doesn't sound too great, but is fairly significant. and beneficial.
Also, regarding 'losses' sustained in the 'pipework and intercooler(s) - then it is worth noting that the 'pressure drop' is proportional to CFM squared) !!! (Cubic feet / min SQUARED !!!) (which is MASSIVELY SIGNIFICANT in saying that the pipe work 'theoretical restriction' makes absolutely sod all difference until major changes are made - so one manufacturer's designed pipework system and another is not really much of a difference providing the increase in flow is not massive.
Personally, I think the freelander IC - if x 2 - would be a quite considerable increase in COOLING efficiency of around 10% and also a reduction in restriction even with existing piping and y pieces added - however the real gaind would come from the cooling / IC efficiency allowing extra boost - (and REMEMBER the freelander (certainly the later models running the 100490 turbo IS running the SAME turbo as the ZR / 25 /45/ series rover ! - ALSO - the SDi injectors)-) - so the turbo is NOT the old SDi - it is capable of 160 BHP no worries - - at a moderate power increase (reasonable) - with decat and remap of 225 torque and 130 bhp) - would make a very good difference over standard - however - of course - I am totally biased and slightly 'sunburnt' - gulp - reaches for extremely cold beer and dons fireproof suit
The pipework would make beggar all real world difference - however - the IC restrictions would decrease (which I have -- for the sake of simplicity - not added into the above ) - the cooling efficiency of the IC units would definitely - imho - increase.

It is all a best guess
The only way to really test these (oft) crazy ideas is to try them - hell, I have the time and the (limited) dosh - so $ugger it - let's play eh ?
Nothing ventured etc....

Huge thanks to -
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=Intercooler-Maths&A=109789
and also Garret themselves -
https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/faq

You only live once and you only find real results by trying - or, let some other poor sod do it haha.

Joe

ps, I don't follow the A/C method. I think it would be a total and unnecessary nightmare and not work - well - not work at all really without robbing the engine of more or less all gains - in fact more - for no actual gain at all - the airflow through the evaporator would be huge leading to massive inability for the evap system to work unless it was INDUSTRIAL SIZE. Air to water is a possibility - but again not really efficient in the real world - or practical on a freelander

I mean - jeez - I would rather fit an L series to a KV6.. lol

I mean - jeez - I would rather fit an L series to a KV6.. lol

Haha, what muppet would do something like that...... Anybody seen @GrumpyGel lately, cough
Mike

Lol Mike

Roflmao....
Joe

ps - I Know GG can give as much as he gets lol
So, I have donned my tin hat............................................

A larger, more efficient intercooler is the best way to increase the cooling capacity of the induction system. However this is only true if the standard intercooler is too small. If the standard cooler is sufficient or already slightly too large, going larger won't help. It can actually have a slight detrimental affect, increasing lag. This is because a larger volume intake needs more air to pressurise it before useful boost is seen at the cylinders. So the trick is to size the cooler according to the engine's requirements. A 150 Bhp engine won't need a cooler with the capacity to cool the intake charge of a 600 Bhp Metro 6R4.
Take a look at the intercooler installation on an Audi TT Quattro. That has 2 tiny 6 inch square coolers in series. These will happily cool enough air for 250 Bhp before they start causing issues.

Going to the complexity of a refrigerated intercooler is only really practical on a railway locomotive
Water cooled intercoolers are also a possibility, but again at increased complexity and cost.

Feck off you barstewards.

Offer a little technical advice, and get a load of verbal.

Hope ones dog eats the others cooler

I thought adoning a heat pump to the bonnet was a fantastic solution.

Nodge68 said:

A larger, more efficient intercooler is the best way to increase the cooling capacity of the induction system. However this is only true if the standard intercooler is too small. If the standard cooler is sufficient or already slightly too large, going larger won't help. It can actually have a slight detrimental affect, increasing lag. This is because a larger volume intake needs more air to pressurise it before useful boost is seen at the cylinders. So the trick is to size the cooler according to the engine's requirements. A 150 Bhp engine won't need a cooler with the capacity to cool the intake charge of a 600 Bhp Metro 6R4.
Take a look at the intercooler installation on an Audi TT Quattro. That has 2 tiny 6 inch square coolers in series. These will happily cool enough air for 250 Bhp before they start causing issues.

Going to the complexity of a refrigerated intercooler is only really practical on a railway locomotive
Water cooled intercoolers are also a possibility, but again at increased complexity and cost.

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Hi Nodlge,

I absolutely agree that going larger will not help if the standard is adequate for the needs !!! (as I keep telling her ! )

However "A 150 Bhp engine won't need a cooler with the capacity to cool the intake charge of a 600 Bhp Metro 6R4." only applies IF the cooler is already adequate for the needs within 60-75% of expected capacity.

Size of piping / tubing also does not actually make too much noticeable difference in the real world - once pressure is built up the increase is proportional leading to no real lag.unless a vicious dump valve is present. however, yes, it can be an issue if definitely oversized. The CFM /Min Square rule (or lack of understanding ! is most often the issue as the pipe sizer completely cocks it up. ! - pipe sizing should be fully proportional to intercooler pressure drop - and not the other way around - pressure drop at the IC is down to poor design and should be nil in the real world (impossible - but the ideal) we CAN get close to it though.
In terms of piping size and inrercooler size (if above needed) the 'lag' is not really an issue. Lag is to all intents and purposes an issue with turbine spin up and not compressor output,
Oft misunderstood but real world. you really cannot make a turbo respond better by altering the intake tract (in a noticeable way)
Again, my bride has a turbine tract that my compressor output fails to adequately satisfy it's needs - I am seeking a smaller turbine housing and trying to add a hybrid compressor to my wheel and shaft...............................

Beer should also be intercooled. ! - period...

GrumpyGel said:

Feck off you barstewards.

Offer a little technical advice, and get a load of verbal.

Hope ones dog eats the others cooler

I thought adoning a heat pump to the bonnet was a fantastic solution.

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Miserable old fart lol

My bride makes a superb heat pump... just got to get her on the bonnet..............................

(I will go and get me chair to stand on,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, )

Oh the mention of a Metro 6R4, I've gone all squidgy inside.
Used to do rally marshaling, sod the escorts and quattro's, when those metro's were coming it was like thunder, and fast, fook me, you needed big balls to drive one of those things.
Going for a lie down in a darkened room
Mike