Freelander 1 Inter-cooler options for L series (TD5 ?)

Has anyone fitted an uprated intercooler to the L series freelander ? - (maybe TD5 or other options from whatever make / model . >)
I realise it may well involve some body chopping and hose replacements....
However - I am having my L series chipped after EGR delete and CAT removal. In Portugal - for example today ! - it is a reasonable 32 degrees C outside !!
ANY method of cooling the intake would be good... I do not want to go the crazy route of paying for a modded unit - just something with higher flow that can be 'persuaded' to fit.....

Cheers
Joe

Just pondering - I could - perhaps - run another stock intercooler in parallel with the original - hmmmmm. --- just two simple homebrew 'Y' hoses and problem 'solved' - on paper -----
obviously - - locating (the second unit) it is a 'challenge' but hey.... - pressure then split two ways and twice the surface area - also, restriction losses halved .. hmmmmmmm again...
I submit my proposal for 'ripping to bits and general humiliation ' or modicum of feasibility' to the 'house'... lol

wrong thread doh !

only freelander1 type i've seen (online) is for the td4 .. and quite expensive

however saw some others .. for defenders ..
that had the option of 'off-road' .. or 'fast-road' types
the 'offroad' type had less cooling fins per inch
( i.e. made for lower speeds )

most have the height width weight specs documented
i'd guess taking initial measurements of what's needed might help in a search

'n one that's too big .. Might have a detrimental effect regarding turbo lag ..
finding one that matches the engine requirements in necessary methinks
( plenty of info online .. on how to calculate what's needed )

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hd3 said:

only freelander1 type i've seen (online) is for the td4 .. and quite expensive

however saw some others .. for defenders ..
that had the option of 'off-road' .. or 'fast-road' types
the 'offroad' type had less cooling fins per inch
( i.e. made for lower speeds )

most have the height width weight specs documented
i'd guess taking initial measurements of what's needed might help in a search

'n one that's too big .. Might have a detrimental effect regarding turbo lag ..(the lag is most often related to the turbine rpm (the exhaust side) - a higher performing combusion due to higher density . hense higher air / fuel ration produces a greater exhaust flow - hence higher turbone speeds lower down and less lag ?)
finding one that matches the engine requirements in necessary methinks
( plenty of info online .. on how to calculate what's needed )

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Hiya HD3,
Thanks for that mate
Out of interest - why do you think an intercooler that is too big would have a detrimental impact on performance ?
In my experience - all the intercooler does is decrease the temperature of the compressed air leaving the turbo compressor housing. Any reduction in restriction to that airflow (with added cooling) would (imho) decrease turbo lag.
'Less cooling fins per inch' tends to indicate a greater FLOW potential and presumably a LESS restrictive unit. (possibly at the expense of actual reduction in Inlet air temp and hence density)
Is it not the 'density' of the inlet air we desire to increase ? hence adding a greater possibility of fuelling per given weight of incoming air ? (for example - the ideal stochiometric ratio of fuel to air and bang per cycle is increased with a higher density (lower temperature) of air incoming ?)
Surely the ideal is to maximise the cooling effect with the absolute least restriction ?
'I will go boil me 'ed' lol
Joe

To add to the above (afternoon hypothesis)
The cooler the inducted air - the greater the possible / air fuel ratio ( or - more realistically - the more IDEAL the air fuel ratio!)- which is based on 'mass' of air - (the cooler the more dense - hence the higher the mass of air - hence the mass of fuel to give the 'ideal' - 14.5 : 1 (ideal stochiometric) ('ish)) ratio of air per mass to fuel mass )
That would cause a greater 'bang per cycle' hence producing a higher exhaust outlet 'airflow' - therefore spinning the turbine earlier - hence spinning the compressor earlier - so, bringing the 'boost' in at a lower rpm. ?

Cooler intake air is better all round - cooler = higher density = more bang per cycle..

Jeez, I need another beer haha - well, begger me, it IS 32 degrees here - a cold one is NEEDED
Joe

A larger intercooler and the increased airflow and cooling it provides is likely to increase performance. On the downside, I'm not sure how good the L series would be at adapting to the airflow - you may run into engine fuelling limitations and suchlike. It is good practice to have an ECU remap and maybe uprated fuel pump, boost controllers, etc. at the same time. I'm not sure how feasible this with your engine.

I suppose the simplest mod would be as you suggest, to put a second intercooler in parallel. Space might be a bit tight, though, even if you just put on a massive front-mount (a la Mighty Car Mods!)

If you do decide to go ahead, do a few baseline 0-60s first and let us know the results.

As above although I don't believe the stoichiometric ratio for diesel is 14.5 to 1. That's the petrol fuel/ air ratio for perfect combustion. This neither good for ultimate power or economy in a petrol engine
Adding a larger intercooler will reduce the intake air temperature, thus increasing air density. This denser air can burn more fuel before black smoke is produced. More fuel burned in denser air= more torque. More torque means more power to push the vehicle along.
Don't bother with 0 to 60 timings as there are to many variables with gear changes and the like.
It's much better to choose a gear and accelerate from through 1500 Rpm to 4000 Rpm, timing how long it takes to go between those two points. Use the same stretch of road and do it several times, taking the average. But you'll know this already won't you.

Nodge68 said:

Don't bother with 0 to 60 timings as there are to many variables with gear changes and the like.

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Awwwwww... 0-60s are fun!

why do you think an intercooler that is too big would have a detrimental impact on performance ?

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wuz on about turbo lag
i.e. the time it takes the compressed air to travel from turbo air outlet .. to intake manifold ..
the longer the path .. the longer the time ..
( obviously different if the turbo idling .. then boosted ..
( to .. the turbo already compressing .. and starts to compress even more

like if you had a real long pipe .. and a blower at one end
when the blower was turned 'on' .. there'd be a delay ..
before someone at the other end would feel any air blowing thru

i've been playing with a 'digibooster' ( DGB1 ) last couple of days ..
essentialy it alters the map that the ecu uses to control the turbo ( vanes .. on the td4 vnt type )
that's one method of reducing .. or getting rid of .. turbo lag
can recommend the device .. even on a bog-standard td4 i rekon it would improve drive-ability ..

be some new ones .. that one model .. look to be suited to the L-Series
http://www.tuning-diesels.co.uk/digiboosters/
( the less ££ one .. the DGB1 .. might work on an l-series
( haven't looked into it ..

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The L series is a nice reliable old engine, but it's no speed demon.
I think, as stated above, you'll run out of fuel pump boost, before you can take advantage of the extra air.
Bit more complicated than just sticking a bigger intercooler on.
Mike

Hi guys,
The way I have decided to do this is to fit another standard L series inter-cooler in Parallel. The ECU is getting remapped anyway- and because I am socketting and programming the ecu eeproms myself (with hex files supplied by a well known tuner) the files can be modified as needed anytime in a very small amount of time - just one of the services provided.
Regarding fuelling, I very much doubt there would be an issue with the current ability of the ecu to cope, however the remap will have that covered. I also very much doubt the intercooler addition will have as much effect as the removal of the cat (which was night and day) but it will be a good thing overall me thinks especially when remapped.
I also consider the easiest way of 'testing' the result is actually by measuring the IAT directly.
Getting the plumbing sorted will be interesting but fun (in a masochistic way) two allow y pieces should sort it depending where I can shoe horn the second cooler.
I am also not convinced re pipe runs having any impact (within reason of course) - providing they have the minimum amount of restriction and good clean runs.
It should also enable boost to be increased slightly as well - possibly to 20 / 21 psi and still remain at a reasonably sensible IAT.

At the end of the day the overall thing is time spent in relation to benefit - I have the time, but I dont want to strip the front end (again ) after just doing an engine out jobbie and front end strip (new rad, new cambelt(s) new clutch and rear crank bearing, new core plug., waterpump etc etc etc.. deep joy...

I think it is definitely a future experiment - I have just ordered a second intercooler from the good old UK so will have a play when it arrives - I am awaiting a parallel eprom / eeprom reader / programmer from Ebay as all my stuff is ICSP and Jtag. Of course the L series ecu being of the type that cannot be programmed by the OBDC socket - it is a chip replacement job.
Also looked into the later Rover ZR compressor housing as a possible 'upgrade' but found that it is identical to the L series freelander (the core and compressor not the turbine although the turbine wheel is identical) - so that would be pointless and I do not want to go the way of special hybrid units - vnt would be nice lol - but - I can see no cost effective way of fitting one. (the earlier 200 / 400 / 600 SDi rovers DO use a different turbo that can benefit from a 25 / 45 / ZR - but not he freelander.
All good fun
Thanks for al the input lads - I will try and get some piccies and test results.
Joe

Nodge68 said:

As above although I don't believe the stoichiometric ratio for diesel is 14.5 to 1. That's the petrol fuel/ air ratio for perfect combustion. This neither good for ultimate power or economy in a petrol engine
.

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Hi Nodge, interesting points re A/F ratio in Diesels, yes, it would appear that - although the 14.5 is theoretically correct - the slower burn time would lead to excessive soot hence a greater Air mass to Fuel mass is used - interesting stuff... thanks for the input
Joe

Hi all,
Ok, let us 'presume' that the freelander turbo (contrary to various written blogs) is exactly the same performance as the MG ZR turbo (which it is - Joeh dons fireproof suit )

Then, the best thing to do is raise the boost - now, to raise the boost, it is beneficial and only really possible to lower the IAT - (hence the Inter-Cooler improvement !!) - so, we improve the performance of the Inter-cooler - hence we get a lower IAT - hence we CAN increase the boost (within limits) - (ok ok , YES ! - I KNOW - fuelling has to be allowed for yada yada yada.......)
So, the increase in boost due to the lower temps due to the increased IC cooling add OOOOphhhhh. - all down to the IAT and the ability of the turbo - which is really only limited in the FL due to the lack of IC performance....
Win Win ....
Comments re ZR turbo re FL turbo welcomed. .. - I assure you, it IS the same.....

Jeez, the heat from this suit is a big Whoosh !

Be interesting to see the double cooler set up once fitted!

You may find by venturing to the dark side ( jap stuff ) that an off the shelf IC is available of ebay with same width but deeper core which might come up to be less than the cost of the bits for s second IC and

Are you fitting the new IC before remap?
Have you upgraded the panel filter as well?

Hi Mate, yes to the second parallel IC before remap - definitely NO to the panel filter - I have NEVER seen a panel filer increase any realistic performance - only ludicrous claims of such.. sorry, I don;t mean to be 'too' obtuse - butt he claims for things like 'bolt on goodies' are mostly total Bull$hit - I worked in the business for years - it just not add up. - REAL gains are made with REAL changes.
Joe

Joe_H said:

Hi Mate, yes to the second parallel IC before remap - definitely NO to the panel filter - I have NEVER seen a panel filer increase any realistic performance - only ludicrous claims of such.. sorry, I don;t mean to be 'too' obtuse - butt he claims for things like 'bolt on goodies' are mostly total Bull$hit - I worked in the business for years - it just not add up. - REAL gains are made with REAL changes.
Joe

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Whist it's important for a filter to allow enough air to enter the engine with minimal restriction. The claims of huge power gains are over exaggerated. Fronm testing air filter flow rates many years ago, a naturally aspirated engine needs about 2 cubic Ft per minute for every Bhp being made. So provided that the filter has enough surface area to allow the air in, nothing is lost. The material is pretty unimportant, as long as it's designed as a filter medium. I've seen foam filters that that acted like a cork on the intake system because they were of a closed cell type.
I have tested paper vs oiled cotton vs foam from various manufacturers. What is surprising, is how well a quality paper filter works when new. I found that paper generally allowed about 4 cubic Ft per minute for every square inch of filter surface. This flow will reduce as the filter fills with dirt.
Foam filters can flow well but judging by the amount of dirt I found on the inlet tract, they don't filter that well. Oiled cotton didn't flow as well as paper, especially if over oiled. Oiled paper does filter quite well, but not as good as paper. I also found that an under sized oiled cotton filter would shed it's oil into the inlet tract. Not good if the engine has a MAF on the inlet.
On a turbo charged engine, filter size isn't so much of an issue for flow as the turbo pulls air through it. However an undersized filter will get dirty much faster, which will start to starve the engine and possibly damage the turbo it's self.
By my calculations a 130 Bhp NA engine will need a paper filter that has a surface area of around 65 square inches. Any bigger won't add a jot of power. Going slightly smaller won't rob a huge amount of power either. The smaller filter simply gets clogged with dirt faster.
All my testing was done on a NA engine and flow bench.
Like I said, a turbo engine will be less affected by a slightly small filter. But for best performance and filter life, I'd go on the 2 Ft per bhp method.

OK @Joe_H , there really is a simple solution to you need to cool the air. All this piping and extra IC add drag/drain on power as the air tries to get through it. Also it can only reduce it by a factor dependent on the ambient air temp - which in a hot Portugese summer, won't be much.

So rather than going to the Rover parts bin for a duplicate IC, why not raid it for an AC? Take out the IC and a lot of piping, and stick an Air Conditioner into the circuit?

Now a problem with this may be that you have to put HP into the AC to get lower temps and therefore higher HP - the question would therefore be how many HPs go in to get some more HPs out? Perpetual motion springs to mind!

I'm presuming that comparing this to perpetual motion probably means that using the AC unit from the Rover parts bin will not work. However, when we were sold our Heat Pump - we were told that we get $3 of hot/cool air for every $1 of power put into it. So if you convert $ to HP - presumably putting a heat pump into the system rather than an AC would work?

An AC unit would increase the density and therefore mass of air available in the cylinder, and so allow more diesel to be injected (and a higher effective compression ratio), hence more power. Although the AC compressor would rob some HP, it's not really perpetual motion because all you're doing is increasing the rate at which the engine burns diesel. If you just increased the injection rate in a standard engine, it would puff it out the back as black smoke.

I assume this isn't done because the extra complications of rigging up an AC IC aren't justified by the power increase available. After all, you're trying to cool an awful lot of fast-moving air. I have heard of ICs cooled by a water spray, though.

GrumpyGel, isn't a heat pump effectively a reversible refrigeration/AC unit, or am I thinking of something else?

guineafowl21 said:

GrumpyGel, isn't a heat pump effectively a reversible refrigeration/AC unit, or am I thinking of something else?

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Yeh, before we moved here we'd never heard of them because everyone in the UK had gas or oil fired central heating.
Their primary job is to pump out heat in winter and they can also be used to pump out cool air in summer. They're basically supplied as an outside unit combined to 1 in the house via pipework. If the one in the house is pumping out warm air. the outside one is pumping out cool air - and it is very cold, the units can ice up, so they turn themselves off, defrost and start going again.
I think they work on the same principles as fridges, eg moving compressed or expanded gasses/liquids around.