HDC light and F4

Hello,

posted in the "Engines" forum (because I replaced the engine!), but I guess the questions are supposed to go here.

Anyway,......2002 V6 Hippo. Replaced the engine, and beating my head over some issues. "No brake lights". Just found the post saying that the ONLY brake lights on the car, are the "third" one over the spare tire, and two in the bumper! I've been beating my head over the fact that the two in the fenders are inop! Well,.....I've never even seen a Hippo until my wife fell in love with this one.

So the ONLY major problem I have, is HDC (amber) light on the dash at all times (no other lights,......most of the time!). Sometimes the display flashes F4, and the car goes into "crawl" mode, but turning it off, and restarting, returns it to normal. "No other lights, most of the time" means, that she threw CEL yesterday, and I pulled P1717 code. Can anyone point me in the right direction on that? Is one of the solenoids in the Jatco sticking? Would flushing the tranny solve it? Or do I need to change the tranny (I have another one)?

Sunroof is inop also, but wife never uses it ("it messes up her hair"!), so that doesn't worry me. There is no sound from the sunroof motor at all. Fuse is OK, and I swapped the relays around. Thankfully it's closed, and not leaking!

I bought this Hippo with trashed engine, so I bought another working car (for parts). The first one, is one owner in MINT condition (minus the snapped timing belt!), and the parts donor has working engine, tranny, good body, and trashed interior after 3-4 owners. Both cars are 02 with 92-94K respectively. I pulled the engine, and the mint one is running fine now after the replacement, except HDC light, and sporadic F4.

I'll use everything I can off the donor, and part out the rest. The original engine out of the first one, will go on the stand, and get rebuilt (by me) for future use.

I am a retired military, with plenty of time, and I've been "wrenching" (as a hobby) since the late 60s.

Welcome to the forum.

LR don't use P1717 code. I also looked it up in my hawkeye and it doesn't list it for LR. Same for rave disk.

There's lots of posts on ere with help regarding F4 flashing. Also how to resistance check the auto, check it's fuild level is correct (special method) and checking the barrel connectors.

http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f9/jatco-auto-box-true-231171.html

Thank you. My OBD gave me P1717!? Guess it's generic. I am reading EVERYTHING regarding F4 flashing, and haven't found the identical problem. I am not even sure that HDC light on, and F4 are connected?

Googled Freelander P1717 and got the following:

Land Rover Workshop Manuals > Freelander System Description and Operation > AUTOMATIC GEARBOX - JATCO > Description > Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC) > Page 209

Got the same thing. "Low clutch timing solenoid". No clue how it looks like, or where to find it (inside the Jatco). I'll search some more, and I do have another Jatco that I can canibalize.

EDITTED: Wow,....just went into "Hippo's" post in the thread about Jatco! What a wealth of info! My plan is shaping up (regarding F4 and the gearbox). Opening the donor box, testing resistance on all the stuff, combining the solenoids (using the good ones), swapping the boxes, and changing oil. That should do it.

Now I'm trying to resolve the HDC light, and MANY posts point to the Throttle Possition Sensor. But which one!?

This Hippo is 2002 US model (throttle by wire). Do I need to replace the sensor above the gas pedal, or the one on the throttle body? I started to take out the gas pedal one (from the donor car), and got stuck! Bolts are IMPOSSIBLE to reach (the two holding the sensor), so I decided to take the whole pedal out! Not possible either! It's held by two 13mm nuts, and the bottom one is easy enough to take out. The top one I can't reach with ANY tool! No room for sockets, and no room for the box/open end wrench! How in the world is this supposed to come out?

I just wasted two hours, and stripped my knuckles trying to get the gas pedal out. I was thinking, I'll disconnect the battery (on the Hippo that's operational), do the hard reset, unplug the pedal sensor, plug it in the donor pedal, reconnect the battery, and see if the light goes out. IF the malfunctioning sensor causes the HDC light to be on at all times, this should work. And IF the light is out, I'll just replace the pedal (complete with the sensor).

But I can't get it out, in the first place, and I'm not sure that's the right sensor to replace either! I'm stuck.

td4van said:

Googled Freelander P1717 and got the following:

Land Rover Workshop Manuals > Freelander System Description and Operation > AUTOMATIC GEARBOX - JATCO > Description > Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC) > Page 209

Click to expand...

I sit corrected. It seems they added additional error codes. That one is 2002 onwards. Is the online manual downloadable?

The amber ! symbol is generally the pedal sensor. There's no needs to remove the pedal. The sensor just pops out.
You'll enjoy rebuilding the engine. I love the KV6!!

Hi I suspect it will be the one on the throttle body and not the one on the pedal itself

Will have a look and see if I can find some info on the P1717 fault

The low clutch timing solenoid is part number THT500070.

Good luck with the repairs!

He should be able to measure the resistance on that to see if it's broke'd or out of spec... hence the P code.

Nodge68 said:

The amber ! symbol is generally the pedal sensor. There's no needs to remove the pedal. The sensor just pops out.
You'll enjoy rebuilding the engine. I love the KV6!!

Click to expand...

You guys are AWESOME! Seems like you Euro guys love Hippos more than the Americans (I lived among you for over 30 years, so something must've "rubbed off" LOL). American Hippo forums are DEAD.

"The sensor just pops out"!!!!!? In my ignorance, I am probably looking at the wrong thing! There is a black, cylindrical do-dad, where the pedal linkage is going to. BIG white electrical connector, and the whole bunch of wires going to it. I thought this IS the sensor (is it not?)! That's the only thing I can see that would have ANY connection to the gas pedal. And this thing is held on with two bolts (8mm head, and 10mm nut!) to the bracket that is part of the pedal bracket. Lower bolt is hard enough to get to, but the upper one is IMPOSSIBLE. That's why I had the idea to remove the whole pedal, and this black, cylindrical crap would come out with it.

Now,.....if the throttle sensor just "pops out" (I don't have a reason to doubt you), .....could someone post a pic of the thing! IF I can recognize the thing, I might be able to get to it.

EDIT: I just Googled "Throttle pedal sensor on 2002 Freelander", and the picture of the thing I AM trying to liberate, came up (on Ebay). The pics are all with the sensor attached to the pedal bracket, and sold as such! So now I need the elaboration on "just pops out". I pulled, cussed, banged, cussed some more, bled, and discovered two bolts holding it to the bracket (as previously stated). So how in the world this thing comes out?

I had this problem last week. Turned out to be the brake pedal switch. (Brake lights worked) but the switch also lets the car know you arent pressing the brake pedal so the hdc control can work alone. Also check that the little white magnetic contact switch on the throttle pedal is in contact with the pedal when stationery.

I took my brake switch off worked some wd-40 in it and re fitted. Job done no light

Also check the hdc switch on the gear stick is working. (Used multi Meter for that)

the reason for the American hippo forums being dead they are use to JEEPS not Landrovers, LOL now I will do a thousand push ups for mentioning the word Jeep before somebody tells me off

Thank you. Since I am swapping the stuff from the donor car, to the one that wife is driving, I would be shocked if both cars have faulty parts. The donor car was running fine, with no lights, and no glitches. I swapped the brake light switches (I didn't even know how the brake light are supposed to work, so I thought they are not. They worked correctly before, and after the switch swap.), HDC switch, and gear sellector indicator, and HDC light is still on. My next step was accelerator possition switch swap, and I got stuck trying to remove it from the donor car.

Wife just came home (working about five miles from home), and told me that the F4 started flashing after she entered the gate (we live on 140 acre horse ranch, and after the gate is a gravel road to the house, barns, and garages, all about 200 yards from the gate). As long as she was on the pavement, ....no F4!

I think the F4 is connected to the P1717 code (low clutch solenoid), and I will replace the solenoid on Friday, and service the gearbox. I'm almost sure F4 will go away after that. Now to the accelerator possition switch again! How does it come out WITHOUT unbolting it? What am I missing?

teddywood1 said:

the reason for the American hippo forums being dead they are use to JEEPS not Landrovers, LOL now I will do a thousand push ups for mentioning the word Jeep before somebody tells me off

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I owned few of those (unmetionables!). Quite a few. Six I believe, over the years. They are simple, and easy to wrench on. I wanted more sophistication in my older years. Kinda like the comparison between the Kentucky whiskey, and a Scottish single malt, if you know what I mean? Both will get you equally drunk.

My Landrovers are QUIET! I can actually listen to the music, and/or talk on the phone while on the freeway. They will do everything the others do, but with that special British flair!
I owned most European cars ever made (still have S430 AMG), but British vehicles have "something", I can't really define. The smell, the feel, the quirkyness, .......all wrapped into the "old world" package. Anyway,....I'm preaching to the choir.
Now tell me how to get that SOB switch out, without breaking it!

Danielsand said:

I owned few of those (unmetionables!). Quite a few. Six I believe, over the years. They are simple, and easy to wrench on. I wanted more sophistication in my older years. Kinda like the comparison between the Kentucky whiskey, and a Scottish single malt, if you know what I mean? Both will get you equally drunk.

My Landrovers are QUIET! I can actually listen to the music, and/or talk on the phone while on the freeway. They will do everything the others do, but with that special British flair!
I owned most European cars ever made (still have S430 AMG), but British vehicles have "something", I can't really define. The smell, the feel, the quirkyness, .......all wrapped into the "old world" package. Anyway,....I'm preaching to the choir.
Now tell me how to get that SOB switch out, without breaking it!

Click to expand...

I'll take a picture of the switch tonight.
It's entirely possible that the US spec Freelander doesn't have said switch. Our UK spec Freelanders definitely do.
I'll post the picture later.

Dan, this may be of some help

Freelander HDC & TC Warning Lights Green Land Rover

The plunger part of the switch sits against the pedal. I think that you are trying to remove the pedal itself!

Skynet said:

Dan, this may be of some help

Freelander HDC & TC Warning Lights Green Land Rover

The plunger part of the switch sits against the pedal. I think that you are trying to remove the pedal itself!

Click to expand...

Thanks Sky. This link confirmed all I already knew about it. The pic of the "old brake switch" is exactly what I have (in both cars). I swapped them. Brake lights on both vehicles worked before the swap, and after (THAT switch is not a suspect any more!). It's HIGHLY unlikely that both switches would be faulty, AND the donor car didn't have ANY warning lights.

So I moved onto the "accelerator position switch".

The THIRD picture from the top is the ONLY switch I was able to locate, connected to the throttle pedal. And THAT one is what I'm trying to remove from the donor car at this time. It shows in this picture that it's attached to the bracket with TWO bolts. I managed to remove the one that's visible when you look up from the floor. The other bolt is completely inaccesible! So I decided to remove the pedal itself (complete with the switch). It's held with two 13mm nuts (screwed onto two studs welded into the firewall). The botom one I easily removed with 13mm socket, but the upper one doesn't have ANY room to put the socket on it, and the open end wrench can not go on it either (the pedal bracket is too narrow to insert the wrench, and do ANY movement).

The way it looks,......the dashboard, and the ductwork for the heater needs to be disassembled (WAY too much work, and it opens a whole new can of worms!).

Someone posted that this switch just "snaps out", and I'd like to know how (looks like that's not possible).

Also,.....the helpfull link you provided, talks about TC AND HDC lights being on, and ALL I have is HDC! My TC light is operational (lights up when the key is turned on, but goes off like it should).

Thank you all for trying to help.

The 3rd pic you are talking about shows the base of the L - shaped old switch and this is what we are talking about as the one that pops/snaps out. This switch is what operates the brake lights and HDC/TC sensing of brake pedal operation. I can't remember the old switch set up but I do know that the new switch had an adjustable plunger that had to be set at the right point of operation to get the lights working properly. Also dont be too willing to think that 2 old switches, especially after removal, still work properly. Personally I'd be attaching a multimeter to the switches to check for electrical resistance.

This is the UK spec throttle pedal switch.