Freelander 1 Beware - these are out there :o

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Whilst I don't mind Bell selling such an IRD. I do question the motives behind selling it. It does seem odd that a company with a reputation for selling top quality refurbished VCUs and IRDs, would want to tarnish that same reputation by selling such a discrete way of gorging a Freelander.
 
Ok i will reply to this, even though I have stopped posting on here as things always end up degrading into silliness as a few individuals like to try and instigate trouble and do seem to like to try and drag the name of respectable companies though the mud for their own amusement.

This started on the Facebook page last night, but i think it was deleted as the discussion started to degrade. Im disappointed it has ended up being posted here again as it seems to be aimed at purely bad mouthing us.
There is a market for 2 wheel drive units, mainly i assume based on cost, not surprisingly some people dont want to throw £1k at a £300 car, and its a way of getting a cheap car back on the road rather than scrapping, especially if its only used on road. We are asked for 2wd units, so we supply them. Its a business. We do not sell them as 4wd drive units, so are not deceiving anyone. They are built to order, if you want an output flange, we will supply it, if you want the flange cut off, we will supply it, if you want a blanking plate, we will supply it. As mentioned in the earlier posts, there are reasons why people want the flange left on, its their decision.

The units are fully reconditioned but dont have a new crownwheel and pinion fitted, hence the price cut. When an IRD fails its not necessarily just the crown wheel and pinion that goes, and therefore people will need to buy a replacement, not just blank the end off.

There are 1000's of 2wd freelanders out there, made (or failed) in different ways to achieve this. We have lots bought into us by customers, some we put back to 4wd, others we dont as the customer cant afford it.

We arent selling anything illegal. We arent telling people to sell their car without disclosing the fact its 2WD. So i really dont think we are doing anything wrong.

As an example, we can make VCU's stronger or weaker if really required. We have infact created stronger and weaker VCU's for a very high profile engineering firm for test rigs. We modify limited slip viscous differentials for race cars and performance cars to suit the customers requirements. Should we stop this just incase they dont tell the person they sell it to later down the line its a modified unit???

After last nights Facebook chat, even though i don't consider we are doing anything wrong, i have changed the advert on our website.

I hope that may answer peoples concerns.

regards
Austen
 
Hi Austen, and thanks for your reply. It was certainly not my intention to bad-mouth you. In fact, I received excellent service from you when I ordered a recon/exchange VCU and bearings recently. If you look at my post history you will find several mentions of this and hearty recommendations of your company. I still feel this way.

I fully accept the following points:
  • There is a market for 2wd units - yes indeed, whether due to economics or the intended use of the car.
  • You do not sell the units as 4wd - your advert is very clear on that.
  • The units are fully reconditioned - agreed.
  • You aren't selling anything illegal or deceiving anyone - agreed.
The point we are stuck on is why anyone would want an IRD that appears to be 4wd, but is, in fact 2wd and can even have the prop 'sham fitted'. Other than, of course, deception. It's the presence of the dummy pinion flange that bothers me, not the fact that it is 2wd. It's about the motives of the customer, which you as a legitimate company might consider, rather than any deception on your part.

Your last point about the VCUs goes back to my earlier post - you make mods to VCUs (without totally disabling them, I assume) for sound engineering reasons, not just appearance. In your description of the 2wd IRD, there are no such engineering reasons cited. It's sold as something that will give the 'appearance' of 4wd. So no, I don't think you should stop modding VCUs. I do think that is different from what we're arguing here - modification for pragmatic reasons rather than cosmetic ones.

Boiling the debate down to its essence, I would say that the conversation that went:

CUSTOMER: Can you recon my IRD to 2wd? I'm broke, and don't need 4wd.
BELL: Certainly, Sir.
CUSTOMER: But... Can you refit the pinion flange so it spins but doesn't drive anything? That way I can refit the prop.
BELL: Certainly, Sir.

Should have gone...
.... BELL: Er, I'm not so sure about that last bit, Sir. The prop would be doing nothing useful, adding weight to the vehicle and extra rotational inertia to the drivetrain. We usually supply 2wd IRDs with a blanking plate. I can only imagine you wish to refit the prop to give the appearance of a 4wd for the purposes of sale, and we wouldn't feel comfortable supplying such a unit.

See the difference? It's not Bell doing the deceiving, but unless you can come back with a reason for the dummy pinion, it's sort of inevitable that some will assume it's ONLY for dodgy purposes.

I hope I've made clear that I'm not in this thread to troll companies, but have entered into the debate in the spirit of discussion. Your 2wd-IRD-that-looks-like-a-4wd struck me as a vehicle for deception rather than a deception in itself, and it has been interesting to hear the views of others on the subject.
 
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No offence taken ;), and i do appreciate the many positive comments we get on this forum. We try to promote ourselves by a offering good, honest service and good quality products, something i hope all of our customers feel they receive.

I have modified the description on the website now to try not to plant the seed with an unscrupulous customer .
 
austen said:
No offence taken ;), and i do appreciate the many positive comments we get on this forum. We try to promote ourselves by a offering good, honest service and good quality products, something i hope all of our customers feel they receive.

I have modified the description on the website now to try not to plant the seed with an unscrupulous customer .
Click to expand...
A balanced and fair response. That's the way to do it! Are you listening, Land Rover City?
 
austen said:
This started on the Facebook page last night, but i think it was deleted as the discussion started to degrade.
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That's why I no longer follow any FB groups. At least on 'ere you get a load of interesting/informative threads before one goes bandy!
guineafowl21 said:
The point we are stuck on
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Erm "WE"?

If someone's going to use one of these things, they might as well get it from Bells, at least it'll be a decent rebuilt unit. If they're getting one to flog on as 4WD, I'm sure they could save a couple of quid and get one from a place who primary expertise is sandblasting the casings so they look new.

There in lies a clue - if its got a shiney case it ain't original so there should be a receipt - check it or beware!
 
GrumpyGel said:
Erm "WE"?

It's not just me on here who disagrees with these units being on sale.

If someone's going to use one of these things, they might as well get it from Bells, at least it'll be a decent rebuilt unit. If they're getting one to flog on as 4WD, I'm sure they could save a couple of quid and get one from a place who primary expertise is sandblasting the casings so they look new.

Again, dodgy individuals (not you - I've covered that) will do what dodgy individuals will do. It's the fact that Bell are selling these that surprised me.

There in lies a clue - if its got a shiney case it ain't original so there should be a receipt - check it or beware!

Buyer beware indeed - although the shininess will dull with time or by other means. But even Austen from Bell couldn't (or didn't) justify the dummy output flange. He said it's what the customer wants, so they provide it (previously) for '4wd appearance'. This, for me, stretches 'buyer beware' a little too far. There are enough Del Boys out there; they don't need help like this.

For the UK market, can you think of any legitimate reason to sham fit the prop? I can't. That, for me, is the $64,000 question.
Click to expand...
 
I feel that I should reply @austen, as I instigated this thread. As already stated, you have a reputation for supplying a quality product. Nothing was intended to decry that.

My only reason for posting this was to notify people that just because the prop & VCU are in position, doesnt mean that it is in 4wd. One of the things "we" regularly suggest to new purchasers of Freelanders is to ensure that the VCU & props are there to ensure 4wd. This, obviously, is not the case. I felt that it should be posted to ensure that people get an unbiased and truthful knowledge base so that they can make a more realistic assessment of any vehicle they are considering.

I am sure that your products will still be recommended as good quality items.
 
for a change I am not saying nothing about these units if Bells what to sell them that is up to them because they can and it is their business , there is only one point I must add the british weather that is why I brought a 4x4.
 
saxavordian said:
Are you still creating strain on the rear having the two props and vcu still spinning from drive forward and backwards. Or do the rear act like bogey wheels regardless until drive needed.
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If you mean with the dummy 4wd IRD: As you accelerate, the rear diff will be driving the props and vcu, and on slowing down the inertia of them will be trying to drive the diff. This situation isn't too different from the standard 4wd setup, due to the slight gearing difference between the front and rear axles.
 
I ended up having a right argument on Facebook about it. Got the guy to delete it in the end cos it's not good for business and not fair on Bell. I personally don't have an issue. It's supply and demand. There's a market for it so why turn business away. Also I have never heard of anyone unwittingly buying one. Not saying it won't happen but it'll be pretty rare compared to all the missing props!
 
Diesel Do said:
I ended up having a right argument on Facebook about it. Got the guy to delete it in the end cos it's not good for business and not fair on Bell. I personally don't have an issue. It's supply and demand. There's a market for it so why turn business away. Also I have never heard of anyone unwittingly buying one. Not saying it won't happen but it'll be pretty rare compared to all the missing props!
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You're spot on about the rarity of this issue - I don't expect Bell sell many of these units. It's something to keep in mind, but not lose any sleep about.

As for supply and demand, what if I took NoDosh up on his offer and bought the LRV.co.uk name? I'm sure with a simple jig, a grinder and a decent MIG welder I could knock out VCUs with the guts taken out, say, one an hour... Charging, let's say, £50 a shot. I could change bearings and seals for not much more.

There'd be demand, from shady types wanting to shift their car on looking like a 4wd with a recon VCU (who else would want one? That's my problem with this), but should I supply it - what would everyone on LZ think of me? The mod is not so different from Bell's offering, just 3 feet further back. Theirs is a dummy pinion so the props can be kept, mine is dummy VCU for exactly the same purpose.
 
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guineafowl21 said:
You're spot on about the rarity of this issue - I don't expect Bell sell many of these units. It's something to keep in mind, but not lose any sleep about.

As for supply and demand, what if I took NoDosh up on his offer and bought the LRV.co.uk name? I'm sure with a simple jig, a grinder and a decent MIG welder I could knock out VCUs with the guts taken out, say, one an hour... Charging, let's say, £50 a shot. I could change bearings and seals for not much more.

There'd be demand, from shady types wanting to shift their car on looking like a 4wd with a recon VCU (who else would want one? That's my problem with this), but should I supply it - what would everyone on LZ think of me? The mod is not so different from Bell's offering, just 3 feet further back. Theirs is a dummy pinion so the props can be kept, mine is dummy VCU for exactly the same purpose.
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No it wouldn't be the same, the car would still be in a ****e condition because the IRD would be crap (worn down bearings, broken teeth etc) and therefore likely to be dangerous and suffer serious problems. With the recon 2WD IRD the transmission will be in good condition and likely to provide reliable service for a good number of years. If the purpose is to deceive, it is at least done with some compassion :)

I would imagine the cutting/welding/tidying/painting is the time consuming part of reconditioning VCU - so if the purpose is to deceive, I think you'll probably go bust before the first person is fooled by it. So you should charge more - after all the dodgy dealer only has to remove the props to fit the VCU - much cheaper job than replacing the IRD.
 
GrumpyGel said:
No it wouldn't be the same, the car would still be in a ****e condition because the IRD would be crap (worn down bearings, broken teeth etc) and therefore likely to be dangerous and suffer serious problems. With the recon 2WD IRD the transmission will be in good condition and likely to provide reliable service for a good number of years. If the purpose is to deceive, it is at least done with some compassion :)

Deception with compassion! I like the image. Here, the compassion is the recon IRD, and the deception the dummy flange. Also available seperately.

I would imagine the cutting/welding/tidying/painting is the time consuming part of reconditioning VCU - so if the purpose is to deceive, I think you'll probably go bust before the first person is fooled by it. So you should charge more - after all the dodgy dealer only has to remove the props to fit the VCU - much cheaper job than replacing the IRD.

Well, the economics was a side note, but hypothetically what would you think of such a company's morals?
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