Alternative to the fluid coupling (VCU)

jamesmartin said:

its a nice job in any case .id be proud

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Thanks for those kind words. Encouraging.

It looks well made and a good job, so credit where it's due.
I'm just curious as to the long term reliability of the IRD or rear diff with the gearing difference between front and rear.
It's is the only working replacement that we've seen. So it has that got going for it, it actually exists.
If it were to contain a ratio change in the casing, then I think it would a good alternative to those who want a simple manual control of the drive.
Although at £1000, that's a lot of VCUs to wear out for the same amount.

likimstip said:

Thanks,
I might be getting this wrong, but you seem to like the Tegralok idea a tad less than I do. I guess you won't be fitting one any time soon.
I'm having fun using this one, so we are all happy.

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Don't get me wrong, as I said, you're the first person that I know of to actually not just talk-the-talk, but to create one of these. So I completely respect your achievements.

As I said as well, this is MUCH better than running a 2WD Freelander - so if you're worried the VCU will chew your transmission, its a viable option. What you have created is a Land Rover Vitara/Jimny/Hilux/Terrios/Trooper/Terrano tyre affair - and loads of (misguided) people love them. It hasn't got the low range that most of these have though. I do believe also you'll need to get the gearing right inside the box to compensate for the IRD's under-gearing of the rear axle - jack 1 side up, turn the front wheel 100 times and see how many turns the back wheel makes - I think it'll turn only 99 times and that'll tell you the gearing you need.

My Freelander is currently 2WD. If the crown/pinion gears in my IRD were complete, I'd consider it. I wouldn't chose it though, because I'd install a reconditioned VCU as I feel its a better solution.

See, you've created this device and I still haven't got round to fitting my replacement IRD and getting the VCU reconditioned - so I appreciate the effort you've put into it

Nodge68 said:

IWhat would be good however is a device that could disconnect the drive to the rear at the flick of a switch, but keep the VCU for normal running. This disconnection would be perfect for those times when the VCU might be prone to locking. Like when a spare tyre is fitted or one has gone low on pressure, mid journey.

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"Utopian" view that would probably result in a 'siezed' VCU and essentially a Tegralok without the pssibility of addressing the gearing issue.

If you can ditch the front prop and replace the Tegralok with a 50+KW electric motor with all the controllers to switch between full EV (RWD), hybrid (4WD) and ICE (FWD) dependant on battery capacity and charge - I'd be interested

GrumpyGel said:

If you can ditch the front prop and replace the Tegralok with a 50+KW electric motor with all the controllers to switch between full EV (RWD), hybrid (4WD) and ICE (FWD) dependant on battery capacity and charge - I'd be interested

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So would I. Thnis is something I have thought about - I have high current industrial electrical experience, along with controller tech. You would not need 50Kw, I would think 20Kw would be enough for typical 4WD situations.

Tony Reeves said:

So would I. Thnis is something I have thought about - I have high current industrial electrical experience, along with controller tech. You would not need 50Kw, I would think 20Kw would be enough for typical 4WD situations.

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I was thinking 50KW so that it could run RWD without the ICE being on. Would give cheap clean motoring for 90% of our journeys. Admittedly, it would be a bit inefficient lugging around a big lump of iron that is the L Series!

For 4WD on-road hybrid, you're probably right in only needing 20KW to the back axle.

For 4WD off-road where situations may be that the fronts might not be helping at all (ie they've lost traction) I'd think a 20KW motor would probably be under powered, or spend to much time over peak and over heat - however - I defer to your knowledge

I'd also want to travel long distances - eg Chch to Queenstown without the need to make it a 3 day journey - so the ICE definitely stays!

We're lucky in that almost all our electric is nice and clean - is it not something like 80% comes from hydro and the rest from thermal/wind/tidal? At least until the main divide goes - then we are up a creek without a paddle, as we'll have no electric!

Where abouts are you? You should put a post up on the Kiwi thread... https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/gday-folks.286341/

The thing is - It doesn't do anything that the VCU cannot do - it is no better - in fact - it is utterly a worse solution overall.
A better idea would have been to start with your contraption and come up with a miraculous idea to fit a truly superb viscous coupling in place of the problematic and highly dangerous (in terms of user destruction!) device that you have.
Had you designed a VCU you would have achieved a miracle, unfortunately, you have not, you have achieved a box that awaits user destruction and is totally inferior to the VCU as fitted.
Sorry to be blunt - but - yes, ok, hats off to you for actually building something, very nice, but, it is totally inadequate for the job and hence merely a very nice (and neatly finished) exercise in engineering with absolutely and utterly of no practical use at all.
Credits for the excellent engineering - seriously !, but totally nada for practicality and usefulness. A bit like credit for casting molten chocolate to form a poker. Ingenious, but of no use when used in a real fire. - or inventing dehydrated water.................................

As others have said, well done for achieving what nobody else has, however as others have also said, you fixed £270 issue (VCU plus bearings) with a £1000 part. With your knowledge and abilities you could have fixed it for around £10 - £15 if you include welding wire and gas along with the new fluid and if I'm being very generous £85 including new VCU bearings.
A Freelander will get through at worst 3 VCU's in it's lifetime assuming they are replaced every 70 to 80k miles, most will only ever see two.
Do you think your new invention would last more than 80k miles? I'd be highly dubious, especially if the driver forgets to disengage it.

As a fun project it's great but as a serious, alternative to replacing the VCU I don't see it catching on.
BTW I drove my K series 2WD for a while and hated it. It understeered like a barge and spun the wheels at every junction. I believe the TD4 isn't much better, and as for less tyre wear, your talking crap. Front wheel drive only will increase tyre wear not reduce it as the front wheels are able to spin if making quick getaways. MPG better? I think your kidding yourself.

To sum up, Well done for doing it but don't re-mortgage the house to go into production.

Alibro said:

A Freelander will get through at worst 3 VCU's in it's lifetime assuming they are replaced every 70 to 80k miles, most will only ever see two.

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I doubt this very much. I would think that most only see 1 and are either scrapped when it fails and takes out the transmission or are converted to 2WD. Its probably the minority that ever see a replacement.

GrumpyGel said:

I doubt this very much. I would think that most only see 1 and are either scrapped when it fails and takes out the transmission or are converted to 2WD. Its probably the minority that ever see a replacement.

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I think your probably right, but in the context of someone who might be likely to be making the decision, "Will I replace my VCU or go for some new fangled thing that will cost four times as much, may wreck my transmission if left in the wrong position and leaves the car driving crap in 2WD unless I pull a lever?" that kinda person might replace his/her VCU once. Maybe even twice if they're very fussy and do high miles.

GrumpyGel said:

I doubt this very much. I would think that most only see 1 and are either scrapped when it fails and takes out the transmission or are converted to 2WD. Its probably the minority that ever see a replacement.

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From the evidence on my current one, that would be so. My Freelander has done 150K Km and it looks like the original is still fitted. It had a bad support bearing when I took it out to test, but it past the landy spec just fine. I wonder if it is people doing silly things with tires that cause them to cook up.

GrumpyGel said:

I was thinking 50KW so that it could run RWD without the ICE being on. Would give cheap clean motoring for 90% of our journeys. Admittedly, it would be a bit inefficient lugging around a big lump of iron that is the L Series!

For 4WD on-road hybrid, you're probably right in only needing 20KW to the back axle.

For 4WD off-road where situations may be that the fronts might not be helping at all (ie they've lost traction) I'd think a 20KW motor would probably be under powered, or spend to much time over peak and over heat - however - I defer to your knowledge

I'd also want to travel long distances - eg Chch to Queenstown without the need to make it a 3 day journey - so the ICE definitely stays!

We're lucky in that almost all our electric is nice and clean - is it not something like 80% comes from hydro and the rest from thermal/wind/tidal? At least until the main divide goes - then we are up a creek without a paddle, as we'll have no electric!

Where abouts are you? You should put a post up on the Kiwi thread... https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/gday-folks.286341/

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In terms of the electric power, it is a wet finger in the air, backed by my preconceived (possibly poorly) ideas of what one wants to achieve.

I don't see plug in Hybrids as being valid, dino oil is still way too cheap (compared with a true comparison of electricity) and it is way more energy dense and easy to transport than any batteries. I do see hybrid technology being used to fine tune power delivery to wheels and axles, keep the ICE running at an optimal state and to recover a large chunk of the 60% waste heat.

BTW, marginal power in NZ usually comes from coal and gas, so moving from dino fuel to plug in is almost certainly going to burn more coal or gas.

Introduced myself in Kiwi thread - thanks.

Tony Reeves said:

From the evidence on my current one, that would be so. My Freelander has done 150K Km and it looks like the original is still fitted. It had a bad support bearing when I took it out to test, but it past the landy spec just fine. I wonder if it is people doing silly things with tires that cause them to cook up.

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There's not much you can do to a VCU. However, you can run the car with mismatched tyres. At low levels of difference, it probably not enough to put excessive wear into the IRD - but the continual slip will affect the VCU. The continuous shear and heat will probably degrade the fluid, plus it will wear the plates further degrading the fluid - the fluid that comes from tight VCUs is usually grey with the dust from worm plates.

GrumpyGel said:

There's not much you can do to a VCU. However, you can run the car with mismatched tyres. At low levels of difference, it probably not enough to put excessive wear into the IRD - but the continual slip will affect the VCU. The continuous shear and heat will probably degrade the fluid, plus it will wear the plates further degrading the fluid - the fluid that comes from tight VCUs is usually grey with the dust from worm plates.

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Sorry Grumpy I have to disagree with that bit, the plates show extremely low wear on even a heavily worn VCU after 120k miles. I took a little fluid out of my last VCU as it had been over filled and in only a matter of weeks the fluid had turned grey. This was with a VCU which had been cut open, stripped down and cleaned thoroughly so it hadn't been contaminated by dirty old fluid, so it seems the fluid will turn grey very quickly, probably just with any kind of use.

Alibro said:

Sorry Grumpy I have to disagree with that bit, the plates show extremely low wear on even a heavily worn VCU after 120k miles. I took a little fluid out of my last VCU as it had been over filled and in only a matter of weeks the fluid had turned grey. This was with a VCU which had been cut open, stripped down and cleaned thoroughly so it hadn't been contaminated by dirty old fluid, so it seems the fluid will turn grey very quickly, probably just with any kind of use.

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Interesting! Just shows that what's staring you in the face isn't necessarily what it seams

I made my assumption on seeing oil from IRDs with bearing failure - the VCU fluid has that same colour (says a RG colour blind person!) - but the fluid must just do it 'naturally'.

GrumpyGel said:

Interesting! Just shows that what's staring you in the face isn't necessarily what it seams

I made my assumption on seeing oil from IRDs with bearing failure - the VCU fluid has that same colour (says a RG colour blind person!) - but the fluid must just do it 'naturally'.

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Hi GrumpGel and all the other posters on this thread.
I'm posting this as a reply, because I'm not sure how else to do it.
I have a proposal.
Now that I'm happy with my Tegralok I can sell the VCU I bought (and couldn't get to like) after trying it for a few hundred miles. If anyone wants a VCU and bearings set with ultra-low mileage on them, come and see me, help me to further test the Tegralok with my Freelander pulling my 2-tonne field roller (my wife isn't too keen to do it!), take a proper look at the "contraption" - (thanks, Joe_H, upthread) in comfort with the FL over my dry and well-lit garage pit, and then come with me to my local agri-shop. They have a collection point, and I can watch you put £100 in the Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire Air Ambulance tin. You get - a cup of coffee, a chance to really slag off my Tegralok, having actually seen and tested it, plus you get a super deal on a VCU/bearings set in good condition, and I get to support my favourite charity.
What say?

Sounds like a good day out. I wouldn't be able to get down til August, but would like a look at the system.
I'll start saving up for my contribution to the helichopper.
Roughly, where abouts are you?
Mike

I like your fundraising plan. I actually like to way you came up with a working replacement for the VCU too. It obviously took a lot of time, money and skill to come up with. I only have a few concerns about it myself.
First is the gearing issue, so forcing it to be used off road only. An indicator light would be handy.
Second is that I don't think the Freelander is as good to drive as a part time 4WD vehicle.
Third would be the insurance implications.
If some of these can be addressed, then I can see some people wanting a Tegralok for themselves.

Yeh, decent bit of kit - so long as you don't try to oversell it. Once you start bleating about massive fuel savings - all your credibility goes. Looks good at what it does (if gearing is right).
Would be good to see a video of you getting well and truly stuck in mud or something - then engage the Tegralok to pull the car out - would give a bit more impact than post-it-notes.
Of course the VCU wouldn't have got stuck in the first place - couldn't resist that one!
Its a great offer you've made, and if I still lived in Blighty, I'd probably be arranging a time with you. But unless the Brexit Leave camp win, I don't see it happening - and then - its remote!
I hope you have fun with it, I'm sure you're proud of it, and rightly so. If you can get the price down - and you'll need to over 1/2 the prices you have been talking - then I'm sure you could sell a few.