Adding rear seats to a 'Utility' Defender and the law.

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scamp

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Hi All,

Now before everyone tells me to:search:for my answer, I have done my best to look around the forum but have not been able to come up with what I would consider the definitive answers.

I am looking to buy a Defender with a minimum of 4 seats but want to stay in the lower Road Fund Licence band. From what I have gleaned I think I have come to the following conclusions but would be grateful for someone to confirm this for me.

Buy a Defender of any type registered before April 2006 and convert to suit my requirements.

Buy a Defender registered after April 2006 but it will have to be either a 110 Double Cab or a 110 Utility Wagon.

If I were to buy a 90 or 110 'Utility' (ie factory fitted with only 2 / 3 front seats) and registered after April 2006 and fit rear seats then I would be required to inform DVLA of a change of body type / seating plan which would result in an increase in the Road Fund Licence. I would also be required to inform my insurers of the changes to the vehicle, again resulting in an increase in my payment to them.

Thank you in advance.

On a slight tangent, would anyone by kind enough to suggest any independant 2nd hand Land Rover dealers that they would recommend using? Although I am based in Lincolnshire I am willing to travel for the right truck. So far Google has thrown up some interesting customer reviews for a couple of dealers that I have looked at in Leicestershire.
 
With defenders the year is not that important its the condition of the vehicle , and the spec that is worth the money . A ten year older vehicle with a new galv chassis , difflocks , bigger intercooler could well be better than a vehicle that is newer been worked hard and not serviced properly , and will be more expensive . HTSH
 
tacr2man said:
With defenders the year is not that important its the condition of the vehicle , and the spec that is worth the money . A ten year older vehicle with a new galv chassis , difflocks , bigger intercooler could well be better than a vehicle that is newer been worked hard and not serviced properly , and will be more expensive . HTSH
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OP is more interested in getting a crewcab to take 7 seats than he is in actual age of the motor.
 
tacr2man said:
With defenders the year is not that important its the condition of the vehicle , and the spec that is worth the money . A ten year older vehicle with a new galv chassis , difflocks , bigger intercooler could well be better than a vehicle that is newer been worked hard and not serviced properly , and will be more expensive . HTSH
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Yeah, I do get that. And the condition is as important than the year. But I am trying to comfirm my points raised in my first post, although all advise is gratefully received.

redhand said:
why if you can afford a newish defender you can afford the extra £150 or so a year in road tax surely. Also the post 2006 defenders only come with 7 seats anyway..
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Yes, I can afford the extra £150 but I don't really want to pay it. Not true regarding the seats though. 90 / 110 pick up - 2/3 seats. 90/110 Hard Top (Rear tail door only) - no rear seats.

I am trying to get to the bottom of the legalities of what I can or must do if I add a second row of seats to a Defender that was never fitted with them from the factory.
 
scamp said:
Yes, I can afford the extra £150 but I don't really want to pay it. Not true regarding the seats though. 90 / 110 pick up - 2/3 seats. 90/110 Hard Top (Rear tail door only) - no rear seats.
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My mistake I should have said a maximum of 7 seats..

I am trying to get to the bottom of the legalities of what I can or must do if I add a second row of seats to a Defender that was never fitted with them from the factory.
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Exmoor trim forwards facing rear seats About £700 for a pair IIRC.. if it's post 2006 Bench seats if it's older. but you insurer will want to know about the extra seating. if post 06 so will DVLA bench seats aren't classed as testable for the purposes of an MOT so no need to inform DVLA or VOSA.
 
redhand said:
Exmoor trim forwards facing rear seats About £700 for a pair IIRC.. if it's post 2006 Bench seats if it's older. but you insurer will want to know about the extra seating. if post 06 so will DVLA bench seats aren't classed as testable for the purposes of an MOT so no need to inform DVLA or VOSA.
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OK, thank you. But you will have to bear with me here. Honest, I'm not being deliberately thick - just want it straight in my mind.

If the vehicle is post 2006 and has never had a second row / extra passenger seat fitted from new then the only option for extra seats is of the forward facing type? But if fitted you must inform DVLA and this will result in the RFL going up to the £460 band?

If the same type of truck is pre 2006 then you can fit bench seats and as they are not an MOT item you do not need to inform DVLA or insurer? Or do you need to inform both of them because you have capability to carry passengersand the vehicle has been changed from a Utility to passenger carrier?

This now poses me with a new question - if bench seats (inward facing items sat on top of the wheel arch boxes) are not an MOT item what are the legalities of carrying passengers on them?

I now see why I did not seem to be able to get all the answers that I wanted using the search function. There seems to be a number of grey areas and these trow up spurious results.
 
My 09 plate110 Utility wagon (5 doors, 5 seats, no side windows behind 2nd row of seats) still qualifies as Commercial and £185 tax.
 
scamp said:
OK, thank you. But you will have to bear with me here. Honest, I'm not being deliberately thick - just want it straight in my mind.

If the vehicle is post 2006 and has never had a second row / extra passenger seat fitted from new then the only option for extra seats is of the forward facing type? But if fitted you must inform DVLA and this will result in the RFL going up to the £460 band?
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Don't know about the tax. But if the seats are permanently fitted they have to be tested at MOT and the v5 must have the correct number of seat fitted. also you're insurance will want to know that the vehicle isn't a 2, 4 or 5 seater anymore.

If the same type of truck is pre 2006 then you can fit bench seats and as they are not an MOT item you do not need to inform DVLA or insurer? Or do you need to inform both of them because you have capability to carry passengersand the vehicle has been changed from a Utility to passenger carrier?
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No because Bench seats aren't classed as pemanent seating. There's nothing in law that says a passenger has to have a seat. so technically you could just carry people on the wheel boxes legally or provide cushions for them to sit on or benches. Because they don't meet seating regs they aren't testable so don't need to be notfied of their fitment.

This now poses me with a new question - if bench seats (inward facing items sat on top of the wheel arch boxes) are not an MOT item what are the legalities of carrying passengers on them?
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see above but note that the law regarding child seats states that children may not be restrained in sidewards facing seats.

I now see why I did not seem to be able to get all the answers that I wanted using the search function. There seems to be a number of grey areas and these trow up spurious results.
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Yes and at the end of the day the above is only my interpretation of the law. You really do need to get a proper answer from VOSA.
 
redhand said:
Don't know about the tax. But if the seats are permanently fitted they have to be tested at MOT and the v5 must have the correct number of seat fitted. also you're insurance will want to know that the vehicle isn't a 2, 4 or 5 seater anymore.

No because Bench seats aren't classed as pemanent seating. There's nothing in law that says a passenger has to have a seat. so technically you could just carry people on the wheel boxes legally or provide cushions for them to sit on or benches. Because they don't meet seating regs they aren't testable so don't need to be notfied of their fitment.

see above but note that the law regarding child seats states that children may not be restrained in sidewards facing seats.

Yes and at the end of the day the above is only my interpretation of the law. You really do need to get a proper answer from VOSA.
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Thank you. This clears a lot up but also makes it very clear that to stay legal (God forbid the wheels came off or something) VOSA / DLVA need to be consulted - and having dealt with them before there lies a whole new set of head aches.
 
Right, so have done an bit more digging on the old tinterweb and reworded the questions in google and come up with more info.

You cannot carry more passengers than the number of seats stated on the V5. - So answering my own question from earlier and reiterating what has already been covered by others (Yes - I know I'm a bit autistic - I'm a bloke and we all are in some way) if you fit more seats than stated on the V5 this will change the taxable class of the vehicle.

Now, inward facing bench seats. They are not MOT'able because they are classed as not permanent, but you are fitting them to carry extra passengers so you need to declare the change in seating plan with VOSA - this changes the taxation class of the vehicle.

Oh, what a bloody nightmare
 
You cant just buy the seats and put them in yourself anyway as your insurance will want to see the bill of works from the garage you have fit them they dont like this kind off work they will make it hardfor you, in imho if you were to ad the cost of the seats its prob about 4years of the extra tax just buy the newer one with the seats in
 
First off It does not matter if they are MOT check or not, Forget about the MOT bit as long as they are secure and not near crust.

YES you need to inform the DVLA IF your V5 says how many seats you have, Mine does not its blank and DVLA call center said I dont need to up date it as they have no record.

Yes you need to inform your insurer so they can rip you off a bit more, as for the bit about asking for proof of competent fitments I think that would depend of the insurer as Adrian Flus did not ,

Side facing seats DO NOT need seat belts in fact there is a strong belief that seat belts would cause more injury's

Also remember to make sure your rear door can be opened from the inside.
 
scamp said:
Hi All,


On a slight tangent, would anyone by kind enough to suggest any independant 2nd hand Land Rover dealers that they would recommend using? Although I am based in Lincolnshire I am willing to travel for the right truck. So far Google has thrown up some interesting customer reviews for a couple of dealers that I have looked at in Leicestershire.
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I bought my 110 from here http://www.exmod.co.uk/stationwagons.html
 
Just to clarify this.....

I have a 90 truck cab. I believe the V5 is blank under the number of seats section.

Would I be legally allowed to have a couple of guys sat in the back ?

All of the above seems to suggest that its fine but I am not convinced thats everyones opinion ???
 
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