Hello to everyone! Help me choose

Good evening to all,

I am Tommaso, I'm Italian (hey, nobody is perfect, right?), I'm a survivior of your schools (I was expelled from three of them), I'm now living in Hampshire's countryside (just moved last year), and I'm addicted to classic motorcars! They are my pet sin and, paraphrasing one of your best countryman: "I spent a lot of money on speed boats, motorbikes and fast cars. The rest I just squandered".

Please help me clear my mind, and heart, on what to invest on next:

I much prefer the shape and looks of the 109/110/Defender lineup, but I'm very tempted to invest in a an L322: the value for Range Rovers, now, is simply unbeatable! The the value for money for 109/110/Defender is not as great.

By the way, how does one refer with one word to 109/110/Defender?

Are there clubs in Hampshire Berkshire, which members go on drive-abouts or meet ups? I am trying to get the feel of each one (109/110/Defender) in order to appreciate their differences, and to appreciate if I want to invest more, and how much more. I remember only the 109/88, from my days in England: very harsh ride, too much noise to a conversation, and drafts as if the window were open.

For a month I've been looking at Range Rovers. An L322, without any advisories, from a dealer, can be found for under £5000
I am Tommaso, I'm Italian (hey, nobody is perfect, right?), I'm a survivior of your schools (I was expelled from three of them), I'm now living in Hampshire's countryside (just moved last year), and I'm addicted to classic motorcars! They are my pet sin and, paraphrasing one of your best countryman: "I spent a lot of money on speed boats, motorbikes and fast cars. The rest I just squandered".

Please help me clear my mind, and heart, on what to invest on next:

I much prefer the shape and looks of the 109/110/Defender lineup, but I'm very tempted to invest in a an L322: the value for Range Rovers, now, is simply unbeatable! The the value for money for 109/110/Defender is not as great.

By the way, how does one refer with one word to 109/110/Defender?

Are there any off road events, in my area? Are there clubs in Hampshire Berkshire, which members go on drive-abouts or meet ups? How can I get to experience/drive the 3 models that I am interested in (109/110/Defender)? I am trying to get the feel of each one (109/110/Defender) in order to appreciate their differences, and to appreciate if I want to invest more, and how much more. All I remember was the 109/88 ride, from my days in England: very harsh ride, too much noise to a conversation, and drafts as if the window were open.

For a month now, I've been looking at Range Rovers on Facebook Marketplace, CarGuru and Autotrader and, with a little patience, one can find an early L322, without any MOT advisories or rust, from a dealer, with dealer warranty, for under £5000! If you buy from a private, you can find them for much less.
What can I expect to pay for a 109 without MOT advisories ?
What can I expect to pay for a 110 without MOT advisories ?
What can I expect to pay for a 110 Defender without MOT advisories ?

Thanks for the help.

Tommaso

Tommaso in GB said:

Good evening to all,

I am Tommaso, I'm Italian (hey, nobody is perfect, right?), I'm a survivior of your schools (I was expelled from three of them), I'm now living in Hampshire's countryside (just moved last year), and I'm addicted to classic motorcars! They are my pet sin and, paraphrasing one of your best countryman: "I spent a lot of money on speed boats, motorbikes and fast cars. The rest I just squandered".

Please help me clear my mind, and heart, on what to invest on next:

I much prefer the shape and looks of the 109/110/Defender lineup, but I'm very tempted to invest in a an L322: the value for Range Rovers, now, is simply unbeatable! The the value for money for 109/110/Defender is not as great.

By the way, how does one refer with one word to 109/110/Defender?

Are there clubs in Hampshire Berkshire, which members go on drive-abouts or meet ups? I am trying to get the feel of each one (109/110/Defender) in order to appreciate their differences, and to appreciate if I want to invest more, and how much more. I remember only the 109/88, from my days in England: very harsh ride, too much noise to a conversation, and drafts as if the window were open.

For a month I've been looking at Range Rovers. An L322, without any advisories, from a dealer, can be found for under £5000
I am Tommaso, I'm Italian (hey, nobody is perfect, right?), I'm a survivior of your schools (I was expelled from three of them), I'm now living in Hampshire's countryside (just moved last year), and I'm addicted to classic motorcars! They are my pet sin and, paraphrasing one of your best countryman: "I spent a lot of money on speed boats, motorbikes and fast cars. The rest I just squandered".

Please help me clear my mind, and heart, on what to invest on next:

I much prefer the shape and looks of the 109/110/Defender lineup, but I'm very tempted to invest in a an L322: the value for Range Rovers, now, is simply unbeatable! The the value for money for 109/110/Defender is not as great.

By the way, how does one refer with one word to 109/110/Defender?

Are there any off road events, in my area? Are there clubs in Hampshire Berkshire, which members go on drive-abouts or meet ups? How can I get to experience/drive the 3 models that I am interested in (109/110/Defender)? I am trying to get the feel of each one (109/110/Defender) in order to appreciate their differences, and to appreciate if I want to invest more, and how much more. All I remember was the 109/88 ride, from my days in England: very harsh ride, too much noise to a conversation, and drafts as if the window were open.

For a month now, I've been looking at Range Rovers on Facebook Marketplace, CarGuru and Autotrader and, with a little patience, one can find an early L322, without any MOT advisories or rust, from a dealer, with dealer warranty, for under £5000! If you buy from a private, you can find them for much less.
What can I expect to pay for a 109 without MOT advisories ?
What can I expect to pay for a 110 without MOT advisories ?
What can I expect to pay for a 110 Defender without MOT advisories ?

Thanks for the help.

Tommaso

?



Are there off roading evets in my area?

Thanks for the help.

Tommaso

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Land Rover One Tens, or Land Rover Nineties, are the correct way to refer to coil spring box bodied vehicles before the Defender name was introduced.

Only one comment to make on the rest. Check running costs carefully for any Landrover vehicle less than 40 years old.

I don't mean fuel, I mean insurance, VED, and servicing costs, which can be eye wateringly expensive on modern 4wds.

Get insurance quotes, and check VED rates and the cost of parts carefully for the individual vehicle you are thinking of buying, or your wallet may end up with some pretty nasty surprises later on.

Turboman said:

Land Rover One Tens, or Land Rover Nineties, are the correct way to refer to coil spring box bodied vehicles before the Defender name was introduced.

Only one comment to make on the rest. Check running costs carefully for any Landrover vehicle less than 40 years old.

I don't mean fuel, I mean insurance, VED, and servicing costs, which can be eye wateringly expensive on modern 4wds.

Get insurance quotes, and check VED rates and the cost of parts carefully for the individual vehicle you are thinking of buying, or your wallet may end up with some pretty nasty surprises later on.

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Thank you. Very useful reminder!

I am used to stratosphere levels of insurance & tax costs (*) in Italy, so UK rates are not concerning, for me.

What concerns me are mechanical repair costs: I am meticulous about maintenance (my 8 yo daughter calls me petrOLCD - as in OCD); I cannot live with worn bushings, out of alignment tracking, etc, imagine more relevant faults! Hence my research for an MOT advisories free vehicle and, even then, I will certainly invest £300 in a RAC pre-purchase inspection.

Given my budget, and desire for a mechanically sound model, I am veering away from One Ten, 109 and Defender and looking more towards an L322 (2006 to 2011) with proper tyres.

Any comments as to what prices I can expect for those three models? Can I remain under £10,000?

Any idea if there are 4x4 groups in my area, where I might get a chance to experience driving those three models?

I found many clubs online, but I don't want to join all of them, just to vet them, can anyone recommend the better ones that are active in my area (Berkshire/Hampshire)?


(*) In Italy 4.4 petrol Range Rover tax costs north of €2,000; Not much less for a One Ten; insurance (Naples) also north of €2,000 for both. I would spend €4,000/year only on insurance and tax for a similarly motorized motorcar.

OCD!!! Landrover my not bear well for you then. Get yourself a Toyota
The l322 can be a minefield of electronic and mechanical issues that may test your patience and budget .. take a look through the Range Rover section on Landy zone and see the issue other drivers are having. Even the p38 has its gremlins..

Mark Piercy said:

OCD!!! Landrover my not bear well for you then. Get yourself a Toyota
The l322 can be a minefield of electronic and mechanical issues that may test your patience and budget .. take a look through the Range Rover section on Landy zone and see the issue other drivers are having. Even the p38 has its gremlins..

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Now, this raised some eyebrows... ! I was convinced that 109/110/Defender were indestructible and, by extension, also Range Rovers. No, no, no, no ... I don't want to buy a gremlin's nest! But are also 109/110/Defender gremlin nests?

I would feel really at odds buying a 40 or 70 series Land Cruiser in England! It would be like ordering fish & chips, instead of pizza, in Italy. And don't they revoke resident's visas to foreigners who buy a Land Cruiser, after having been granted a residence permit to live in England?

The 90/110 and Defender tend to be mechanically quite durable, it's the chassis that tends to suffer with most examples on their original chassis being a patchwork quilt of plates over rot holes, best look carefully..

As for the L322 is you're steadfast on having one go for a petrol engined model from 2006-2012 or if it's a diesel you want the 4.4 TDV8 is the safest bet, superior to the 3.6 TDv8 which as the years go by is getting an ever growing list of common faults..

But Range Rovers have a reputation and it isn't one of reliability, L322's can suffer from a plethora of electrical gremlins and rust/corrosion on both the body behind the sill and arch liner covers, also subframes and their mounting areas corrode, so again best look carefully.

If you can stomach the running costs 'insurance 'tax 'repairs etc then go for it.. .

Due to the peculiarities of the UK mot system, advisories are just that advisory, they do not mean anything beyond that, the DVSA get upset if the tester passes everything without any mention of potential faults, hence the advisories are the tester covering his arse and doing what the governing body wants him to do.

Henry_b said:

The 90/110 and Defender tend to be mechanically quite durable, it's the chassis that tends to suffer with most examples on their original chassis being a patchwork quilt of plates over rot holes, best look carefully..

As for the L322 is you're steadfast on having one go for a petrol engined model from 2006-2012 or if it's a diesel you want the 4.4 TDV8 is the safest bet, superior to the 3.6 TDv8 which as the years go by is getting an ever growing list of common faults..

But Range Rovers have a reputation and it isn't one of reliability, L322's can suffer from a plethora of electrical gremlins and rust/corrosion on both the body behind the sill and arch liner covers, also subframes and their mounting areas corrode, so again best look carefully.

If you can stomach the running costs 'insurance 'tax 'repairs etc then go for it.. .

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Thank you for your useful comments but, if I go for a Range Rover, then I do not want to spend as much as I would for a 109/110 and, therefore, the V8 4.4 diesel is beyond my budget. Some petrol models may be within reach, but these comments re electric gremlins... make me uncomfortable.

Do you think that I could find a good 110 without rust under £8,000?

Tommaso in GB said:

Thank you for your useful comments but, if I go for a Range Rover, then I do not want to spend as much as I would for a 109/110 and, therefore, the V8 4.4 diesel is beyond my budget. Some petrol models may be within reach, but these comments re electric gremlins... make me uncomfortable.

Do you think that I could find a good 110 without rust under £8,000?

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Not for £8000 having a quick look through ebay it seems prices are north of £10,000 and don't keep in mind shiny paintwork and a large price tag don't guarantee a good motor

Have you considered a Discovery?

TBH you are asking a bit much, unless you get a newly restored on galvanised chassis Defender, 110/90 range.
The L322 may be more money and its electrical gremlins are possibly worse than a defender.
But of course they are also a totally different car to own/drive.

Have you actually considered a P38 they are considered pretty rust free but may still have issues electrically.

You don’t actually say what you want to do with it? But guessing OCD won’t allow you to get it dirty, but are you willing/able to get your hands dirty?

J

Henry_b said:

Not for £8000 having a quick look through ebay it seems prices are north of £10,000 and don't keep in mind shiny paintwork and a large price tag don't guarantee a good motor

Have you considered a Discovery?

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I do not enjoy other shapes. I only like the 109/110/Defender. The Range Rover could be an alternative, much less desirable, hence, to consider it, it would have to be much cheaper.

If the Range is so prone to gremlins, and I do not even save a lot from a 109/110 then the Range Rover is out. And if I cannot find a good, solid, 109/110 without any rust, then I will have to give up.

marjon said:

TBH you are asking a bit much, unless you get a newly restored on galvanised chassis Defender, 110/90 range.
The L322 may be more money and its electrical gremlins are possibly worse than a defender.
But of course they are also a totally different car to own/drive.

Have you actually considered a P38 they are considered pretty rust free but may still have issues electrically.

You don’t actually say what you want to do with it? But guessing OCD won’t allow you to get it dirty, but are you willing/able to get your hands dirty?

J

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You recommend Defender or 110 as a cheaper alternative than the Range Rover??? It's the opposite!

If the P38 also has issues, what's the advantage?

The fact that I am OCD is the real reason why I am looking for a 109/110 in the first place. This additonal car will be a daily driver, for school runs, across very muddy roads, often flooded to way higher than the door sills, and our Mini Countryman becomes completely covered in mud, including the windows and roof (don't ask me how)! I can't let my wife drive into town in those conditions. When she opens the door, pieces of mud fall off on the car park! I feel embarrassed to have such a dirty city car. But... a Land Rover is a different story! They actually look cool muddy and dirty!

I have a passion for the 109/110/Defender shape but, since I really do not "need" another car, I was using the mud as an excuse to buy my dream car. I am not going to buy an alternative, as it is more of a toy. The Range Rover was a much lesser alternative, but acceptable. Anything else, not really.

Maybe I should really look for a Toyota Land Cruiser series 40 ...

Below is an image (not my car) of what our Mini looks like after one school run. In fact, it looks worse than that, and there is no point in even washing it, as it goes back to muddy with the first school run after it rains!

90/110 and defender prices have gone up over the past few years, there are a few below £10k online but i'd imagine they're not perfect.
You have to realise that a minter is going to run you quite a few thousand over that, unless you buy a basket case and restore it which truth be told will probably cost you more in the long run..

Hate to discourage you but that's the market currently from what I've seen recently..

I'd forget the Defender or Range Rover and go for something a little more interesting, like my recent purchase...

yfo866 said:

I'd forget the Defender or Range Rover and go for something a little more interesting, like my recent purchase...
View attachment 308864

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Oh I would love one of these buggers

Thank you to all, yes, it looks like I will have to give up on the idea of a 109/110 and also the Range Rover. Too bad!

@yfo866​

That's lovely! But not very appropriate for a daily school run! More like a battle re-enactment!

Tommaso in GB said:

You recommend Defender or 110 as a cheaper alternative than the Range Rover??? It's the opposite!

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Not quite what I said, I meant if you want a reliable rust free 1 that would be the place to start.
Yes the Range rovers are cheaper but they come with lots of grimlins that are often not easliy fixed (readnot cheap in that to)

Tommaso in GB said:

If the P38 also has issues, what's the advantage?

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You will have to try hard to find a rusty P38. Mechanically they are workable and most if not all the issues you could come across have been fixed on here by DIYers.
I just mentioned that model as you were vering towards the Range rover.

Tommaso in GB said:

I can't let my wife drive into town in those conditions.

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How does you wife feel about driving a rattly draughty 110/defender, they are not to everybody's taste.

Tommaso in GB said:

I have a passion for the 109/110/Defender shape but, since I really do not "need" another car, I was using the mud as an excuse to buy my dream car.

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You have done the man math part to justify it , if its your passion to own 1 you just need to keep looking to see what comes up. But be prepared.
Have you looked on here at the previous sales to get an idea of what you get for your money? And keep an eye because gooduns do come along at reasonable prices.

Many of the members here have the capability to do the work themselves, you have yet to say if you are prepared to pick up a spanner. If not then things can get very expensive quickly. Regardless of model, but especially the L322.
But that said I don't find any of ours particularly unreliable when kept on top of.
You asked the forum, you have got honest answers. The point is if you go on any carmakers forum you will find them littered with problems, thats the main reason for a forum, to help others. But Like I have said most problems are fixed on here with the help of others.
The newer models dont have the same amount of knowledge base at this time so are harder. But they are also harder because of tools and equipment needed.
The older models tool requirement is a lot less.

But as I have said Ours are on the whole reliable. And yes the little "mud ball" gets muddy.

Dont lose hope of a dream.

J

Tommaso in GB said:

Now, this raised some eyebrows... ! I was convinced that 109/110/Defender were indestructible and, by extension, also Range Rovers. No, no, no, no ... I don't want to buy a gremlin's nest! But are also 109/110/Defender gremlin nests?

I would feel really at odds buying a 40 or 70 series Land Cruiser in England! It would be like ordering fish & chips, instead of pizza, in Italy. And don't they revoke resident's visas to foreigners who buy a Land Cruiser, after having been granted a residence permit to live in England?

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I wouldn't say Ninety, One Ten, or Defenders, were indestructible. They are old tech, and have a reliability level you would expect of vehicles designed in that era.
Their saving feature is that parts are pretty cheap, so if you don't mind working on them yourself, they are affordable in that respect.

Land Cruiser are generally a better vehicle, although if you want to avoid heavy running costs, you are better off with an old one of those too. They are also quite expensive to buy. An older Hilux can be a cheaper alternative.

The only Land Rover I would consider now would be a Series, or possibly one of the earliest One Tens or Nineties.
They are quite simple, so reliability is better, the parts are still cheap. and because they can be Historic Registered, they are zero VED, no MOT, and cheap classic insurance. They also get you into some interesting conversations everywhere you go.

Tommaso in GB said:

Thank you to all, yes, it looks like I will have to give up on the idea of a 109/110 and also the Range Rover. Too bad!

@yfo866​

That's lovely! But not very appropriate for a daily school run! More like a battle re-enactment!

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I bet if you dropped off the kids at school when you went to pick them up you'd have double the number of kids climbing into the back
That was the case years ago when i gave a lift up to the local shops to the twelve or thirteen year old daughter of a mate. I was in my Series 2 (as pictured in avatar)I waited for her to come out but when the other kids hanging around saw her climb in i got mobbed by them begging for a ride around the block! Being outnumber by about eight to one i gave in. It turned out they were school friends of hers...

So, my first consideration concerns costs:
Insurance prices have gone bonkers! For rural Hampshire my broker quoted £1,600/year for a Defender worth £12,500, and £1,900/year for a Range Rover worth the same. This broker confirmed that I am in the lowest risk category (NO claims in past 5 years, own a home, 50+ years old, w/ wife & young child, etc, etc) and mentioned that, in London, many companies, from November, have started to refuse to insure any type of Land Rover. Prices have been going up because of thefts but, recently, since before Christmas, it's become completely bonkers!

Second consideration is about reliability (hence costs, again):
I visited 4 garage around my area (two were 4x4 specialists): all tried to steer me far from Range Rover. In fact, they all mentioned that also the Defender is far from perfect and a couple added that the 110 is better than the Defender series.

Since I cannot find a decent 109/110/Defender under £12,000 and, since it would be impossible to insure it, sadly, it looks as if I won't be coming on board this lovely world!

marjon said:

Yes the Range rovers are cheaper but they come with lots of grimlins that are often not easliy fixed (readnot cheap in that to)

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Range Rovers are ebbing out of my radar. (i) more expensive to insure, (ii) less reliable and (iii) much less what I like. They were a fall back option to start with.

marjon said:

You will have to try hard to find a rusty P38. Mechanically they are workable and most if not all the issues you could come across have been fixed on here by DIYers. I just mentioned that model as you were vering towards the Range rover.

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I am looking at these too. Insurance is in the region of £1,200 so cheaper than both Defender and Range but the lower insurance quote was due to, probably, a lower vehicle value to start with (£7,000)

marjon said:

How does you wife feel about driving a rattly draughty 110/defender, they are not to everybody's taste.

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She would never drive it. We agreed that, when it rains, the school run becomes my job, as the very deep floods convince most drivers to make a detour, and our Countryman All4 slips a little, left & right, on the uphill climb, when the road becomes too muddy or icy.

marjon said:

You have done the man math part to justify it , if its your passion to own 1 you just need to keep looking to see what comes up. But be prepared. Have you looked on here at the previous sales to get an idea of what you get for your money? And keep an eye because gooduns do come along at reasonable prices.

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I am stumped by costs. I refuse to allocate that much money for a school run car, even if it is my passion. We already have 3 other classics in our garage in England and six more in Italy. This would be the 10th! Admittedly, for this one there would be a true purpose, as the Mini struggles a bit uphill, when it's really muddy, but I think that I have to keep my feet planted on the ground!

marjon said:

Many of the members here have the capability to do the work themselves, you have yet to say if you are prepared to pick up a spanner. If not then things can get very expensive quickly. Regardless of model, but especially the L322.

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Nope! No time for this hobby, unfortunately.

marjon said:

Don't lose hope of a dream.

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I won't, but the budget is a reality that I must contend with.

Turboman said:

I wouldn't say Ninety, One Ten, or Defenders, were indestructible. They are old tech, and have a reliability level you would expect of vehicles designed in that era. Their saving feature is that parts are pretty cheap,

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This is what I am hanging on to ... but first I must find a reasonable underwriter who will insure a £12,000 Defender or 110 in rural Hampshire !!

Turboman said:

Land Cruiser are generally a better vehicle,

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Please, Turboman, no blasphemy, I am religious about Land Rovers!

Turboman said:

The only Land Rover I would consider now would be a Series,

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These are outside of my budget.

Turboman said:

or possibly one of the earliest One Tens or Nineties. They are quite simple, so reliability is better, the parts are still cheap. And because they can be Historic Registered, they are zero VED, no MOT, and cheap classic insurance. They also get you into some interesting conversations everywhere you go.

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110 seems the only option for me, so far. Within the budget, possibly insurable (I have to verify, not sure yet) and easy to fix.

yfo866 said:

I bet if you dropped off the kids at school when you went to pick them up you'd have double the number of kids climbing into the back

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HAHAHA yes, quite likely!


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In the end it comes down to budget/costs: I do not have the time/space/tools for a DIY car, and the insurance premiums have gone bonkers for this type of car. I am paying £600/year for 3 classics (of considerable value) and £400/year for a 2012 Mini Countryman. £1,000 in total. Adding another £1,000, just for a Defender, worth very little compared to the other cars, seems a bit silly to me.

Wow, you've every right to think and feel the way you do unfortunately.
If you do need a 4x4, what about a Suzuki Jimny.(random suggestion )The latest one is a 4x4 but doesn't demand high insurance... A different animal but in the scheme of needing traction.. is it worth a thought.
At least you've done your homework and can't be faulted for it. if anything, credited for your efforts