Freelander 1 yet another "won't start" thread '02 TD4 -- laid to rest for now

[Coucherias]

Greetings everyone,

At wits' end here. Perhaps some enlightened souls can see something I obviously am missing.

Two weeks ago, after a series of intermittent not starting, I changed the solenoid contacts and plunger. Started first time every time for two weeks, then that ka-thunk ka-thunk noise started again. Two days ago pulled the starter, checked the contacts, all seemed fine, re-installed. Started the first time but the one time only. Ran out of daylight. Yesterday pulled the starter again to check contacts and plunger, all seemed well, re-installed. No dice. Pulled it a second time, and this time pulled apart the motor casing. Disassembled entirely, looked clean and brushes looked fine but cleaned the brushes anyway, wiped everything down, shot some air through everything, reassembled and reinstalled. Started first time only despite repeated tries.

This morning had the starter checked by a neighbor mechanic, it all checked out, solenoid and starter. He suggested I check to see juice was getting to the small tab contact next to the post where the battery cable attaches. Home again, reinstalled, started the first two times but nothing after that. Pulled the little wire off its tab, multi-tester showed juice with every turn of the key by the Mrs. I reattached the wire and I don't recommend this, but I even wiggled it while Mrs tried starting the car. Nothing apart from the ka-thunk.

Battery seems good, when the starter does turn the motor over the battery doesn't seem low. All lights show up on the dash, had pulled the cowling over the ignition switch yesterday but it's just a cartridge, nothing to see.

Even with juice getting to the tab contact on the starter could it still be the ignition? What should I see in terms of juice to the tab?

So where do I go from here? I'd be grateful for any insights.

 

[Alibro]

Check the voltage at the starter with everything connected and a friend turning the key. Might be a bad connection which doesn't show up unless under load.

 

[Nodge68]

Try applying 12 volts to the tab in the starter. This will prove the starter's functionality. Obviously make sure the vehicle is in neutral first

 

[Coucherias]

Nodge,

We did apply 12v to the tab on the bench with my neighbor.

Makes sense to test the line under a load as per Alibro's comment, will try that next. Should be able to get to it in about an hour or so.

 

[GrumpyGel]

If its 'ka-thunk'ing - is that not the starter solenoid engaging? Would that not indicate that the supply/operation of the solenoid is OK and the problem is with the starter itself? If the starter looks OK and you've obviously installed it a few times to the main power supplied there would be good - have you check the 'other ends' of the starter's power feed and earth cables?

Dunno if the weathers got colder there recently - but my money is on the battery

 

[Coucherias]

I went back out intending to check the line under a load as per Alibro. First though, I wanted to double-check the connection at the tab so I crimped the clamp just a bit and then tried to start. I was still getting the ka-thunk, so while holding the key in the start position I wiggled it around a bit thinking I might get a reaction if it were a faulty contact in the switch. The reaction I got was that it went from ka-thunk to silence. Now I got nuthin', nada, zip, when I turn the key. I put the multi-tester in the wire leading to the tab and whereas before I was getting juice now there's nothing. Dash lights all still work, etc. Checked all the fuses, nothing blown. I imagine this narrows things down to the ignition switch -- is there any way to confirm this before ordering a new one?

 

[Coucherias]

Grumpy,

I was pretty sure the battery was OK so I didn't check it before. For the sake of being thorough I've put a charger on it. But now I need to confirm or eliminate the ignition as the culprit since now nothing's getting to the starter.

 

[Coucherias]

Just went out and attached a lead from the tab on the starter by the battery post and touched the other end of the wire to the positive post of the battery and the starter turns over just fine. So I think I'm OK with the battery and the starter. Now I have to figure out why there's no more juice to the starter. I've got the ignition out right now and sitting on my desk next to the multi-tester while I try to figure a reliable way to test it.

 

[Nodge68]

Have you swapped out relay 2 in the engine bay fuse box? This is the relay that feeds the starter spade terminal.

 

[Coucherias]

Nodge,

Tried it just now as per your suggestion; didn't change a thing. Still nothing, no noise, nothing yet all dash lights work. Left the key on and jumped from the tab on the starter directly to the battery and the engine started right up. Checked lights, radio, windshield wipers, heater fan, all worked. Still open to suggestions -- especially a way to bench-test the ignition -- but going to assume it's the ignition at this point and order a new one. At least I know I can get the car started if I have to. I'll keep you all posted.

 

[Nodge68]

Listen to the relay when starting. If it's not clicking, it's likely to be the ignition switch. They have been known to play up.

 

[Coucherias]

V6, right now there's no noise of any kind. I'm more and more inclined to think it's the ignition switch. I'll order one tomorrow. Easy to change out and not too terribly expensive; between now and when the new one gets in I can always jump to the battery to start the car if I need it.

 

[Coucherias]

Hello everyone,

Thanks for your support. Thought it time for a quick update. As stated above, I can start the car by jumping from the tab contact on the starter to the battery.

Drove it over to Jean-Pierre's place where we pulled the ignition and bench-tested it. We determined to our satisfaction that the ignition switch is not the culprit, since we got a tone from his tester when connected and turning to start position. We also confirmed that there is no longer any juice getting to the external tab contact from the ignition.

Called the local Land Rover dealer who says they're booked until mid-January. So I have until then to figure out what the dickens is going on, or to find a good work-around. For the moment I'm going to string a couple of leads -- one from the battery and the other from the starter -- into the cabin connected to a pushbutton so I can at least start the car without opening the hood each time. The next step, when I can grab a bit of time, might to simply bypass as much of the circuit as possible, running a new line from the starter and tying into the original harness as high up as possible, but I'm not sure where to tie into. Also, I'm not sure I like the idea not finding the original problem and just leaving it there, if that makes any sense. Who knows how it might manifest itself in the future.

Anyway that's where things stand now. Been putting off too many others things around the house and elsewhere to spend any more real time on it for the next few days. A little time away from it will me some perspective. Again, thanks everyone for your help, still open to other suggestions or comments. Sorry Alibro never was able to check your suggestion but it's probably moot now anyway. In the meantime I hope you all are enjoying the run-up to the Holidays. Here in Burgundy it's this time of year where we reach back a little further into the wine cellar and pull out a few special bottles. Good times.

 

[Alibro]

Right so if the starter is OK and the ignition switch is ok then the problem is somewhere in between. I'm no expert in car electrics but from what the other guys have said the ignition switch doesn't directly power the starter but triggers a relay. So as I see it the tests you need to do are.
Check the voltage goes from the switch to trigger the relay.
Check the relay is operating.
Check the voltage is present at the one side of the load end of the relay (one side will be directly connected to the battery)
Check the other side of the load end goes live when the relay operates
If relay is triggering and the power feed is present and going through it then the connection between the relay and the starter is the problem.
In theory it is simple but figuring out the relay connections will be the biggest issue so good luck with it.

 

[Coucherias]

Alibro, makes good sense. I'd really prefer finding the problem rather than running a new lead anyway; if the circuit passes through a relay it must be for a sound reason. Can't do much about it right now as I need to attend to some other things first but when I can I'll tackle this and keep you posted.

 

[redwood]

The Relay for the starter is fed via the immobiliser, The feed comes from the ignition switch through F5 to the immobiliser module and to the starter motor relay K4. The other side of the relay is fed from battery through F7 to the starter motor.

 

[Coucherias]

Redwood, outstanding. Thank you.

That said, any good reason not to just run a new lead directly from the ignition to the tab on the starter?

 

[redwood]

Wire too small from the switch to do that but you can bridge the relay with a fused link wire with 2 female spade connectors on it just to see if it will start, a process of elimination

 

[Coucherias]

Good point.

 

[Alibro]

Alibro, makes good sense. I'd really prefer finding the problem rather than running a new lead anyway; if the circuit passes through a relay it must be for a sound reason. Can't do much about it right now as I need to attend to some other things first but when I can I'll tackle this and keep you posted.

Has to be a first time for everything.