htr
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Mercedes, VW, Toyota, but mainly RR & LR if i'm not mistaken.
transmission failure
- Thread starter Laurence
- Start date
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If the guy who told menwas right, the scenario was if you got a puncture on the mML over a certain mileage it meant replacing both tyres due to geometry and it's electronic system and levelling .. If the difference was then over so many mm between new tyres and existing .. The manufacturer specified 4 new tyres.
This was a tyre fitter who told me ... Right or wrong I don't know, but he had nothing to gain as I drove a disco not a merc, so no sale patter.
This was a tyre fitter who told me ... Right or wrong I don't know, but he had nothing to gain as I drove a disco not a merc, so no sale patter.
+1 ^^^
became interested in that after reading about a car accident ..
think it were 3 fatalities .. mother and 2 children ..
no other car involved ..
cause was reckoned to be a worn tyre ( maybe both ) on rear of the vehicle
https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=put+new+tyres+on+rear
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actually .. one would think the tyre fitters would know the above anyway ..
i guess moving the worn rears to the front is just some added work / time .. etc ..
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got me thinking about another fatal accident ..
motorway near manchester .. no other car involved ..
new mini .. new inexperienced driver ..
lost it on a curve ..
cause .. under-inflated tyres
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Laurence
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Just read a thread on another forum where some poor guy had tyres fitted on a FL on the front, IRD died and had a new one for £700+, was told it was due to the tyres. Went back to the tyre fitters who said that was nonsense and they had never heard about fitting new tyres on the back of a FL. Went on holiday, and it went again. It went to court and he didn't post the outcome but there was lots of talk of expert witnesses and proving that the IRD failure was not due to other causes, and having a fsh etc. Not an assured win.
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GrumpyGel
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I completely feel your pain @Laurence - I was there 2 1/2 years ago feeling exactly the same. I would say though that I think "Why would I think I need to watch out for a major design fault" is both right and wrong!
I completely disagree that its a design fault. Having been through the pain and now understanding how the car works - I understand why the car was so very capable! I often take it off road (beaches, river beds etc) and it was more capable than my old Disco. The traction of Freelanders is awesome. There's no faults in the transmission - it works very very well. Comparing it to your Vitara - it is running RWD mainly, only when the going gets rough do you put it into 4WD. If you had it in 4WD on road - it to would cook the transmission like we're discussing here with Freelander. Freelander's VCU based transmission automatically changes on the fly instantly to let axles slip on tarmac and lock on the mucky stuff. If the VCU and tyres are maintained as they're supposed to be it really is a great transmission system. On road Freelander will instantly engage 4WD should a wheel slip on a patch if ice - you'd be in a ditch in a Vitara before you could even think of engaging 4WD.
So the transmission is not faulty, but I completely agree that the message on what is the right maintenance is scandalously missing from Land Rover. Modern cars have a multitude of stickers all over then saying what type of fuel to use, what the max towing weight are, SRS warnings etc etc. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to work out that compliment them with a warning about tyres would make complete sense!
Later 'SUVs' of course don't use a VCU - they use a mechanical/hydraulic/electronic Haldex unit. In theory this should give the benefit of the VCU but without the possibilities of transmission melt down discussed here. I'm not so sure they do what it says on the tin though! Most of the discussion on here is of F1s, but there are F2 (Haldex rather than VCU) threads. A lot of these relate to problems created by the Haldex and the rear diff its bolted to. My mate's got a Mitsi Outlander that has a Haldex. Firstly he drives it in 2WD all the time - so he's not getting any 4WD on road safely. When he launched the boat, the Mitsi was slipping and sliding on the ramp, so only then does he put it into 4WD Lock. Launched the boat, we go fishing (note go fishing not catching fish!) then he retrieves the boat. About 1km down the road he stops to check the straps are OK on the boat. When he gets back in the car, I point out to him he should really take it back out of 4WD Lock! So the Haldex may or may not save the PTO from the front axle, but its not as "usable" as a VCU and when it goes its 3 times the cost of an IRD & VCU to replace!!!
I completely disagree that its a design fault. Having been through the pain and now understanding how the car works - I understand why the car was so very capable! I often take it off road (beaches, river beds etc) and it was more capable than my old Disco. The traction of Freelanders is awesome. There's no faults in the transmission - it works very very well. Comparing it to your Vitara - it is running RWD mainly, only when the going gets rough do you put it into 4WD. If you had it in 4WD on road - it to would cook the transmission like we're discussing here with Freelander. Freelander's VCU based transmission automatically changes on the fly instantly to let axles slip on tarmac and lock on the mucky stuff. If the VCU and tyres are maintained as they're supposed to be it really is a great transmission system. On road Freelander will instantly engage 4WD should a wheel slip on a patch if ice - you'd be in a ditch in a Vitara before you could even think of engaging 4WD.
So the transmission is not faulty, but I completely agree that the message on what is the right maintenance is scandalously missing from Land Rover. Modern cars have a multitude of stickers all over then saying what type of fuel to use, what the max towing weight are, SRS warnings etc etc. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to work out that compliment them with a warning about tyres would make complete sense!
Later 'SUVs' of course don't use a VCU - they use a mechanical/hydraulic/electronic Haldex unit. In theory this should give the benefit of the VCU but without the possibilities of transmission melt down discussed here. I'm not so sure they do what it says on the tin though! Most of the discussion on here is of F1s, but there are F2 (Haldex rather than VCU) threads. A lot of these relate to problems created by the Haldex and the rear diff its bolted to. My mate's got a Mitsi Outlander that has a Haldex. Firstly he drives it in 2WD all the time - so he's not getting any 4WD on road safely. When he launched the boat, the Mitsi was slipping and sliding on the ramp, so only then does he put it into 4WD Lock. Launched the boat, we go fishing (note go fishing not catching fish!) then he retrieves the boat. About 1km down the road he stops to check the straps are OK on the boat. When he gets back in the car, I point out to him he should really take it back out of 4WD Lock! So the Haldex may or may not save the PTO from the front axle, but its not as "usable" as a VCU and when it goes its 3 times the cost of an IRD & VCU to replace!!!
seems to make sense
though .. if i had a rear.wd vehicle these days ..
think i'd research the issue when the time came to replace tyres
( as in .. never gave it much thought before .. even when i had rear.wd cars .. )
it were reading about that particular accident that gave cause for thought .. about front.wd cars in particular
as for hippos tyres / transmission issues ..
would not have known about that had it not been for reading posts on LZ
( all other car / motorcycle ownership for me had been in pre-internet days )
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Laurence
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Thanks GrumpyGel. I actually yearned for my FL all the time I drove my Vitara. That's why I got another one as soon as I could afford a half decent one. I have some land, which is sopping most of the time, and off the beaten track on an unadopted road and I've been rattling around in the tinny Vitara, switching drives and struggling to get more than one bail of straw in the back. I also have to drive across the country to visit my daughters and look forward to the drive in the FL. Cruises great and substantial and comfortable. I do really appreciate its virtues. I know it has faults but I know first hand how handy and solid it is off road. There was no way I was not going to look after FL properly so I am really kicking myself. I just didn't know. I had a problem with the ancillary belt and it was off road for a few weeks. The alternator bracket had snapped and I only spotted it after I had changed the belt once for it to shred again a month after. So its just come out of the garage after being fixed and MOTed. I asked them to have a listen to the transmission as I thought it was noisy, but the day I picked it up the guy who did the testing wasn't there, so we didn't get the chance to discuss.I was going to have a look over Easter and perhaps temporarily drop the prop, but didn't make it.
So, you are right, it is not exactly a design fault. I work in IT, and I work on the principle that you can achieve fault tolerance by either making sure the design is idiot proof, or by making sure users are fully aware of what they need to do to "stay on the road". Landrover publish a piece of paper and leave it at that. A sticker in the wheel change kit is all that was needed. If I knew about the tyres I would have had them swapped, and the only way I might have known is if I had accidently come across a thread on this forum.Who honestly is going to google "how do I change my tyres".
Anyhow, water under the bridge I guess. Lets hope taking the prop out tomorrow buys me a bit of time.
So, you are right, it is not exactly a design fault. I work in IT, and I work on the principle that you can achieve fault tolerance by either making sure the design is idiot proof, or by making sure users are fully aware of what they need to do to "stay on the road". Landrover publish a piece of paper and leave it at that. A sticker in the wheel change kit is all that was needed. If I knew about the tyres I would have had them swapped, and the only way I might have known is if I had accidently come across a thread on this forum.Who honestly is going to google "how do I change my tyres".
Anyhow, water under the bridge I guess. Lets hope taking the prop out tomorrow buys me a bit of time.
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All the best
Might be useful to change yo usercp to show where you live. You never know your luck....
Might be useful to change yo usercp to show where you live. You never know your luck....
Correct tyre placement isn't just for the Freelander 1. This affects a whole host of modern 4x4s.
My wife's new 4WD Ford Kuga owners book suggests swapping tyres front to rear every few 1000 miles. This keeps the transmission running at similar speeds front to back. The book also says that new tyres go on the back and the maximum tyre diameter difference should be less than 5mm. The Kuga uses a Haldex system as far as I can tell.
As GG said. The Freelander's 4WD system is fabulous but, it needs to be looked after and treated as LR say it should be. If it's looked after, the IRD and rear diff will last as long as the body. If it's abused by incorrect tyre maintenance, the VCU stiffens and something goes bang.
Incidentally, most quick fit type tyre fitters are muppets and don't give a rat's ass which end of the car the new tyres on. They'll simply put them on where the owner asks. This way the onus is on the owner, not the fitter.
However if you order 2 tyres from Black Circles, you'll receive a phone call telling you that the Freelander should have 4 new tyres, but 2 new tyres may be fitted to the rear, if they are the same type as already fitted. So if Black Circles know the Freelander's 4WD system is damaged by incorrect tyre replacement, maybe the other tyre retailers should too.
My wife's new 4WD Ford Kuga owners book suggests swapping tyres front to rear every few 1000 miles. This keeps the transmission running at similar speeds front to back. The book also says that new tyres go on the back and the maximum tyre diameter difference should be less than 5mm. The Kuga uses a Haldex system as far as I can tell.
As GG said. The Freelander's 4WD system is fabulous but, it needs to be looked after and treated as LR say it should be. If it's looked after, the IRD and rear diff will last as long as the body. If it's abused by incorrect tyre maintenance, the VCU stiffens and something goes bang.
Incidentally, most quick fit type tyre fitters are muppets and don't give a rat's ass which end of the car the new tyres on. They'll simply put them on where the owner asks. This way the onus is on the owner, not the fitter.
However if you order 2 tyres from Black Circles, you'll receive a phone call telling you that the Freelander should have 4 new tyres, but 2 new tyres may be fitted to the rear, if they are the same type as already fitted. So if Black Circles know the Freelander's 4WD system is damaged by incorrect tyre replacement, maybe the other tyre retailers should too.
Laurence
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Thanks MHM. Totally understand what you might think, you've seen loads of folk with my problem come on here right? There's only so many times you can tell them how it is and stay patient. Lets hope I'm not posting pics of a shattered case tomorrow.
Thanks
Thanks
Laurence
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THere's no way I am ever going to change a tyre on any car without reading the manual in future Nodge. I was going to soo look after this car properly!
GrumpyGel
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If you've come to terms with the "lesson learnt" - you got there quicker than me I was fuming for weeks, fueled by the fact it was going to cost £4K for an IRD & VCU over here. In the end it cost very little to get a bearing kit sent over from the UK and as we're no longer on our small holding, 2WD was the route chosen! I have all the bits now to go back to 4WD - now I just need to prioritise the time!
You'll obviously work out you're own route to getting back on the road, some thoughts from someone who's been through it...
If you've had banging from the front, that defo means a recon IRD. Banging from it means very very likely broken crown/pinion gear teeth - these are about £250-£300 while you are replacing those you may as well replace all the bearings, so a bearing/seal/oil cooler kit will set you back a further £150. Even before you work out whether you have the tools and experience to fit these - an off the shelf recon at about £650 looks attractive.
If you get an IRD from a breakers cheaper - be very wary of it - it may have been through what yours has - or at least been abused in some way. Make sure you see it with the rear pinion removed first. That way you can check the teeth on the crown and pinion gears. If they look good, and the price is right, its a possible replacement - but even then I'd still renew the bearings in the pinion just to make sure they're OK as they are the ones that will have had most wear. I think if the teeth are OK the remaining bearings in the IRD will probably be OK - but it would be interesting to hear what others think.
I'm pretty sure you'll be in for a new/recon VCU. Before you dismantle things you could try a 1 Wheel Up Test to see if you can judge whether the VCU has been damaged. Depending on mileage - it may be worth changing it anyway as you're doing this work. I think a recon is about £250 and a new GKN unit is about £350-£400. If you go for a recon unit, the consensus on here I think, is to shop no further than Bell Engineering - they're reliable units. You'll probably replace the support bearings, if you do, make sure you get original ones if you want them to last longer than 6 months.
I'm not so familiar with the rear diff. If its got so hot that its pushed oil out of the unit, I think its safe to say the bearings are shot. However, was it this event that made the oil leak or was it like that previously? Every time you see a diff it seems to have oil on it - so unless there's quite a bit of fresh oil, I wouldn't necessarily condemn it just yet. Having said that - I don't really know how to check them to see if they're fit for purpose or not.
What ever you find, good luck!
I was fuming for weeks, fueled by the fact it was going to cost £4K for an IRD & VCU over here. In the end it cost very little to get a bearing kit sent over from the UK and as we're no longer on our small holding, 2WD was the route chosen! I have all the bits now to go back to 4WD - now I just need to prioritise the time!You'll obviously work out you're own route to getting back on the road, some thoughts from someone who's been through it...
If you've had banging from the front, that defo means a recon IRD. Banging from it means very very likely broken crown/pinion gear teeth - these are about £250-£300 while you are replacing those you may as well replace all the bearings, so a bearing/seal/oil cooler kit will set you back a further £150. Even before you work out whether you have the tools and experience to fit these - an off the shelf recon at about £650 looks attractive.
If you get an IRD from a breakers cheaper - be very wary of it - it may have been through what yours has - or at least been abused in some way. Make sure you see it with the rear pinion removed first. That way you can check the teeth on the crown and pinion gears. If they look good, and the price is right, its a possible replacement - but even then I'd still renew the bearings in the pinion just to make sure they're OK as they are the ones that will have had most wear. I think if the teeth are OK the remaining bearings in the IRD will probably be OK - but it would be interesting to hear what others think.
I'm pretty sure you'll be in for a new/recon VCU. Before you dismantle things you could try a 1 Wheel Up Test to see if you can judge whether the VCU has been damaged. Depending on mileage - it may be worth changing it anyway as you're doing this work. I think a recon is about £250 and a new GKN unit is about £350-£400. If you go for a recon unit, the consensus on here I think, is to shop no further than Bell Engineering - they're reliable units. You'll probably replace the support bearings, if you do, make sure you get original ones if you want them to last longer than 6 months.
I'm not so familiar with the rear diff. If its got so hot that its pushed oil out of the unit, I think its safe to say the bearings are shot. However, was it this event that made the oil leak or was it like that previously? Every time you see a diff it seems to have oil on it - so unless there's quite a bit of fresh oil, I wouldn't necessarily condemn it just yet. Having said that - I don't really know how to check them to see if they're fit for purpose or not.
What ever you find, good luck!
GrumpyGel
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Out of interest, what do you run on your land? We had 10 acres here for a while. We operated a small boarding kennels and ran some calves. We also rented out a paddock for a neighbour to run some horses. It was an idylic setting and I loved the place. I'm also an IT guy and at the time I was still contracting for companies back in the UK. So I worked nights (UK time) from home and during the day I'd potter about the place. Cried like a baby when the auctioneer's hammer went down on the place when we sold it - but needed to move on for the kids schooling. Here's a couple of pics, and as you can tell from the away kit, you can take the boy out of Essex, but you can't take West Ham out of the boy
Laurence
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Hi GrumpyGel. Thanks for that. thats really useful advice. To old to worry about what I cant change... no less annoying though! I'll know whats what later today, although swmbo is telling me there is no way I'm crawling under a landrover on blocks in this weather. Katie is gusting about 70mph right now I reckon.
We've only got a couple of acres. If you're essex, you might know Fobbing, its just outside basildon just off the A13. swmbo always wanted to rescue animals so we share our plot with a bunch of rescue chickens, ducks, cats and dogs. Sometimes sheep and the local travellers ponies when they run out of grazing. A never ending project... i spend much of my time when not at work digging and concreting. looks a lot like your photos except my fences are on the floor where the ponies pushed them over. Today gotta go and spend the first hour or two fixing storm damage..... always something to do as you probably know!
I'll let you know how i get on when i get under my hippo later.
We've only got a couple of acres. If you're essex, you might know Fobbing, its just outside basildon just off the A13. swmbo always wanted to rescue animals so we share our plot with a bunch of rescue chickens, ducks, cats and dogs. Sometimes sheep and the local travellers ponies when they run out of grazing. A never ending project... i spend much of my time when not at work digging and concreting. looks a lot like your photos except my fences are on the floor where the ponies pushed them over. Today gotta go and spend the first hour or two fixing storm damage..... always something to do as you probably know!
I'll let you know how i get on when i get under my hippo later.
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Lots of pics too
Laurence
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Ok, here we go. Took the prop off and started. All good. Drove it very, very gently off the drive. Still a very bad crunching noise from the back axle. Sometimes a loud bang. Sometimes seemed to seize and needed a few gentle revs to get past it, but always with an extra large crunch. I'd say the diff is shot, and gears are definitely out of alignment or there are bits of metal floating around.
There are some pictures of the IRD below. All looks clean. I've also embedded a video of the diff connection/flange. I'm pretty sure there should not be that kind of play on this and the oil seems to be seeping from where it meets the case here.
If it is the diff, is it a job I can do myself? I'm off work for the coming two weeks.
There are some pictures of the IRD below. All looks clean. I've also embedded a video of the diff connection/flange. I'm pretty sure there should not be that kind of play on this and the oil seems to be seeping from where it meets the case here.
If it is the diff, is it a job I can do myself? I'm off work for the coming two weeks.
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that diff is well and truly screwed. hopefully that is your only problem.
there are a few on ebay. - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2004-LAND...347709?hash=item236476927d:g:zbcAAOSwvgdW4DLa
As you are in essex, I suggest you look up the Essex guys on here - they are a good bunch and may well help out.
@Hamsterberg, @giveitago, @SteveD
Laurence
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Thanks guys. Just had a look around ebay. There are a few diffs around and price seems reasonable.
Took a look at this....
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=36379
So the job is do-able with some sturdy axle stands it seems. I'll be grateful for your thoughts. Looks like I might have a shot at getting done this week for less than a couple of hundred quid. I have a 4X4 specialist breakers about 1/2 mile who I've used for bits for my Vitara and they seem reasonable and pretty organised so I'll got and have a chat with them in the morning..... if I can get that done I can look at what it takes to get the prop back on.
Thanks for your help guys.
Took a look at this....
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=36379
So the job is do-able with some sturdy axle stands it seems. I'll be grateful for your thoughts. Looks like I might have a shot at getting done this week for less than a couple of hundred quid. I have a 4X4 specialist breakers about 1/2 mile who I've used for bits for my Vitara and they seem reasonable and pretty organised so I'll got and have a chat with them in the morning..... if I can get that done I can look at what it takes to get the prop back on.
Thanks for your help guys.
