transmission failure

Hi all. Sitting in a car park with my 54 plate FL Sport waiting for green flag. Had new tyres on the front (I know, I know!) before Xmas and noisy transmission ever since. Was thinking about going commando this Easter. Today banging and an oily diff and undrivable. What's the chances of getting away of just removing the prop and it driving ok?

grrrrrrrrr!

Laurence said:

Hi all. Sitting in a car park with my 54 plate FL Sport waiting for green flag. Had new tyres on the front (I know, I know!) before Xmas and noisy transmission ever since. Was thinking about going commando this Easter. Today banging and an oily diff and undrivable. What's the chances of getting away of just removing the prop and it driving ok?

grrrrrrrrr!

Click to expand...

Nope IRD is dead. It says quite clearly in the owners handbook thay new tyres should be fitted all round or 2 new identical tyres go on the back. LR knew this which is why they put it in the book. The noise you had after the tyres were fitted was telling you that the transmission was being overloaded. You ignored that warning, now unfortunately for you, it's gonna cost more than the 10 minutes it would cost to sort it at the time. Sorry but that's the truth of the matter.

Oily diff indicates trouble there as well!

in other words you have totally f----- up the drive there is a lot on here about always putting new on the back I nearly did it once so you are not alone but that was a few years ago before I got on here.

I'll have to take that one on the chin then! No-one to blame but mysellf. The second hippo I've had and didn't know about the tyre thing. But, given there are a few around, you would've thunk that the tire comparny that put them on would know.

Dont want to ask this, but, if it is the IRD, how much is that going to set me back?

Hi
I read this....
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/ird-unit-help.195216/
...does this mean if the IRD is f***ked, I can still drive with the prop out while I get money sorted?
And whats a 2WD IRD?

Sorry, I know I'm dense but I need to stay on the road if I can. I've tackled most jobs so I'm worndering if I can last to the summer when I have time off work, I can get it jacked up for a couple of weeks and have a go myself. Dont want to go 2WD (whats the point of having a 4X4) but need to buy myself a bit of time.

Thanks all..

The IRD serves 2 distinct purposes (1) as a differential for the front wheels (2) as a power take off for the rear axle. The 2 parts are reasonably separate in their operation within the IRD. I am pretty sure that when the IRD fails through wind up (which is what's happened to you) the front diff is not affected.

Therefore removing the props will allow 2WD operation quite happily. However (there's always 1 isn't there!) simply removing the props still leaves the parts f the IRD driving the PTO functioning. The banging you hear is the gears in the PTO trying to engage but slipping - it is a cringing horrible sound as if someone is whacking the box with a sledgehammer. If you simply remove the props the noise will probably stop or change to a ticking sound - however they are 'loose gears' that will be turning and give a good chance of jamming - this will either locks your car's transmission, or more likely shatter the case of your IRD - you are up **** creek then because as well as needing a recon IRD - you'll get no rebate for a swap unit.

As well as removing the props, you therefore also need to remove the rear pinion on the IRD and replace it with a blanking plate. This removes one of the gears that was slipping and you should be safe to then drive it 2WD. Keep the pinion and when the time comes to get a recon IRD you will get a rebate because you have the whole unit. Don't forget to replace the VCU at the time you replace the IRD as well.

You are going through what I went through 2 1/2 years ago (although mine went through a tyre low on pressure). Its what bought me to LZ to find out how the Freelander's transmission works! Unfortunately the IRD going bang is all-to-often the way people find out how Freelander's transmission works.

You'll have to tell your insurance company you are running 2WD. Over here, by the letter of the law, you would also need to put the car through a 'compliance test' as its seen as a major change to the car. You don't have to in the England, but you do in Northern Ireland I believe - not sure on other places.

Because of this need for compliance (it would have cost $$$) I opted to still run with props, keep the IRD 'whole', renewed all the bearings in the IRD but removed the pinion gear on the end of the rear pinion. So my props are being turned by the rear diff. Knowing what I know now though, I would simply have removed the pinion gear and only renewed the bearings in the rear pinion.

My rear diff was not affected, its been turning the props for 1,000s of Ks and makes no noise at all. If your rear diff does make noise after the props are taken off, you will probably need to address is for the same reasons as 'lose gears' in the IRD is a no-no. Don't be tempted to remove it and the drive shafts (to the rear wheels) - the ABS wont work and your rear wheels will fall off! You can remove the diff and drive shafts, but you need to retain the 'stubs' outwards of the outer CVs to keep the wheels on and ABS working. People have done this, but I'm not sure if there are any other implications.

Hopefully a £15 blanking plate, an hour or 2 of your time and some oil for the IRD and you'll be back on the road.

I'm going on the theory that oil on the floor means the IRD casing has split. This renders it scrap and not suitable for further use, 2wd or otherwise.

a good visual inspection with photos is required as the next step.

DO NOT DRIVE THE VEHICLE IN ITS CURRENT STATE.

a new/exchange IRD is circa £2000

Thanks GrumpyGel, that looks like the best case scenario, so I'll keep my fingers crossed! I'll get it up on blocks, weather permitting, tomorrow, and have a good nose around. From what I can see the back diff looked very wet, and has been smelling lately (boiling fluid?), so I'm feeling that Nodge68 may be on the right lines, but I may get lucky. It is what it is I guess, MHM, I wont drive it. For a second, I was tempted to limp home before phoning green flag, but if there is a chance of getting up and running I don't want to mess that chance up. I've already been plenty stupid.

The Green Flag man made me smile. He was very impressed with the drilled brake discs. I thought I'd pick his brains in case he knew something about FLs. I said I think the prop has gone, "left or right-hand side?" he asked.

If you are lucky? It might be the rear diff that has failed. These are very cheap compared to the IRD. The props will need removing as the VCU will still need replacing too.

Thanks Nodge. I saw the diff prices. I was surprised at the price (£500 ish). Would work out cheaper but if it is the diff its not going to be drivable until I fix it.

I have a 4X4 specialist breaker near me... he'll give me a call if he gets a hippo in (did something similar with my V6 Vitara). If he gets an accident right-off that is not commando mode might be worth looking at.

Going to spend tomorrow going over the car, but I've been thinking about this all day and something does not feel right. You guys are saying (and I do believe you) that a difference in wheel/tyre diameter of 5mm can/probably will cause up to £1,000s worth of damage to a car. Landrover thinks we should know that because when we buy a car, even second hand, we read the manual which says, " When replacing tyres in axle sets always fit the new tyres to the rear axle." (page 196 in my version). Most cars come with some kind of instruction about preference for replacing tyres, rotation, even wear etc, why would an owner think that this statement refers to the preventing almost certain calamity? They should highlight this as an important condition. And I can't see why a tyre company would not know this and inform the FL owner. This is my second hippo and no-one ever told me when I had the tyres changed on that one also.

I can't think of a single other product where a critical variation from normal practice (common advice is to fit new tyres to the front axle of a front wheel drive car) is not spelled out in the clearest terms. Feels pretty scandalous to me.

Just read this from a post on the same topic from MHM in 2011......
"coz theres a noob every week that can't be arsed to read for themselves, and then there's the ones that have been on for a year and a half and still haven't read anything"
...so I'm another one then! I get he point but who thinks they need to research before they get their tyres changed? Why would I think I need to watch out for a major design fault and know that the hippo is different from any of the many. many cars I've had tyres replaced on over the past 40 years? I'd love to spend my evenings reading about my car... no, wait a minute, no I wouldn't. I've got a job and a family to look after. I'm not flaming, so please dont take offence, but its not about not being arsed.

how many other vehicles have a vcu in the middle of the drive train?

I would have thought the tyre fitters are at least partially responsible for your problem but good luck getting any cash back from them. But I also suspect your VCU is knackered (not turning freely as it should).

I seem to recall Mercedes ml series had the same advice on tyre fitting

I know MHM, none. I'm sure that you know much more about mechanics than me, but even once you know what a vcu does its not obvious that the tyres have to match exactly. I had to take the prop out in my last hippo and was in and out of this forum all the time (its a great forum btw) and never, somehow, picked up the tyre issue. I sold my first FL when I needed to raise money when I got ripped of by a builder. I've spent the last 6 years bombing around in an old V6 Vitara which has now been butchered with an angle grinder to become a pickup to carry straw and hardcore around my smallholding. Still going great after 180,000 miles except for the smoke from the missing piston rings! Never had to think about the mechanics suzuki used to achieve the 4WD. Alright, it hasn't got a vcu but who knows, it might have some clever suzuki feature somewhere... why would I need to know? You who I'm most annoyed about? Bloody tyre company. I'll bet if I went in with a jag or merc they would know exactly what tyre needed to go where. Its not like there are not many FLs about. Basically, they fitted tyres incorrectly to my car, surely?

oops, crosspost Stew and Alibro, but thinking on the same lines (mercs and tyre fitters) ! I'm taking the prop out tomorrow Alibro and hope that the oil is not from a cracked case.

To be honest it is the recommendation regardless of the type of car to fit new tyres to the rear axle as loss of grip from the front end is safer and easier for drivers to control then loss of grip from the rear end of a car

Plus Land Rover did inform tyre companies etc at Freelander launch etc of the extra requirements to fit the new tyres to the rear of the vehicle.

However, the responsibility for the car and its correct maintenance lies solely with the owner of the vehicle not the manufacturer. The manufacturer has taken steps to inform the users and relevant people (owners handbook etc)