This is getting flipping ridiculous

Having just about recovered from my BECM problem where the flipping thing was occasionally cranking itself, it now appears that the starter is suddenly dead. I'm wondering if the becm is actually repaired. It's already had a flipping expensive new fuse box.

It was working fine last week, but following yet another flat battery episode, now all I get is a very solid clunk from the starter when I turn the key.

I've tried a jump lead from the battery earth to the engine and tried tapping it (although I need to try it again with someone turning the key), I've tried shorting out the starter relay to no avail.

Anything else I can try? This will be the fourth starter that has died in the past 5 years (and its been off the road for two of those) if it is in fact the starter. It wouldn't be so bad except that someone in the past has stripped one of the threads in the bellhousing and just used a nut to hold one of the allen bolts which makes an already difficult job an absolute nightmare.

I can't believe the starter could just simply suddenly die. I even bought a decent one last time too.

I can see why people just give up with these vehicles. I haven't even been able to sort the misfire out yet as other problems keep cropping up. It's managed about 30 miles since it's MOT in January!

I suppose I should try and check the battery voltage at the starter, but I've pretty much run out of enthusiasm for it now. Of course, where it's currently stranded, access is so tight that I can't even open the drivers door (it seemed like a good idea at the time).

Grrr.

Quick update: Battery voltage at the starter terminals - I've tried loosening them and retightening to clean them. No change.

One interesting observation, the earth cable on the battery gets VERY hot when turning the key. Does that mean something?

Battery voltage drops about half a volt when turning the key.

Dodgey cable or crudded up connections on the earth. I'd give them a good clean up and see if it sorts it.

Yes heat is a sign of high resistance so poor earth or rotten cable.

Check engine earth strap....

Hmm, but wouldn't running a jump lead from the battery earth to the engine block have got round any connection problems?

Maybe I didn't find a good enough earth on the engine block - I used the alternator bracket.

Which end of the cable is hotter? That's the end with the fault. The actual cable itself has negligible resistance so can't generate its own heat. The heat in the cable can only be cause by conduction of heat from the point of high resistance. The heat generated is proportional to the resistance and the square of the current.

Ok reading your post again, it is possible that you have had the starter staying engaged while the engine is running, causing the motor to burn out or seize up.
If your trying to crank a seized motor with a charged battery all you will get is a clunk and heat in the cables?
Maybe this has been the reason you've been through so many starter motors?

The battery end off the earth cable was actually smoking!

I don't think the starter has been engaging while the engine has been running, although I'm not sure how one would tell.

I had a problem with the starter randomly operating when the car was locked (ie no key in the ignition). The BECM has been repaired by Rick The Pick and it has seemed to be behaving itself since, although ongoing issues have prevented it being used very much.

It was fine last week, the last time I used it (it won't idle properly so the starter has been used a bit more than usual - luckily it starts very easily).

It just seems a bit odd that it would suddenly die. I haven't used it since last week and the battery had suddenly gone flat over the weekend. Perhaps the becm problem is still present and has caused the starter to burn out. I'm not sure how I can tell.

If the cables getting that hot it's pulling some serious current, makes me think it the starter seized.
does it only get hot when you turn key to crank position?
Seen it before on car with faulty ignition switch meaning starter didn't disengage, starter seized solid when it cooled down

Yes, it only gets hot when I turn the key to engage the starter.

Could over use (ie from a fault) seize the starter? I suppose it would explain why the battery was flat again.

Over use would just wear it out, not seize it.
I honestly think you've had a long Running issue by the number of starter motors you've been through, Gees your unlucky if you have to replace one

Is there anything I can do to check/test the starter without removing it?

It's no longer my main vehicle so there's no particular urgency to sorting it out, but I am getting a little fed up with it. It's literally cost a fortune to get it through the MOT after being SORNed for a couple of years and it's been subsequently so unreliable that I'm scared to use it!

Either you have high resistance in cables, shorted starter or starter is binding.

Localised heat at the battery terminal suggests, as others have said, a bad connection or the wire is corroded inside the insulation. The starter motor may draw up to 900 amps even if it turns, so any bad connection will show up as a hot spot. Does the positive cable get hot?
The starter solenoid has to operate before the motor is engaged, can you hear it click in?

kooky_guy said:

Having just about recovered from my BECM problem where the flipping thing was occasionally cranking itself, it now appears that the starter is suddenly dead. I'm wondering if the becm is actually repaired. It's already had a flipping expensive new fuse box.

It was working fine last week, but following yet another flat battery episode, now all I get is a very solid clunk from the starter when I turn the key.

I've tried a jump lead from the battery earth to the engine and tried tapping it (although I need to try it again with someone turning the key), I've tried shorting out the starter relay to no avail.

Anything else I can try? This will be the fourth starter that has died in the past 5 years (and its been off the road for two of those) if it is in fact the starter. It wouldn't be so bad except that someone in the past has stripped one of the threads in the bellhousing and just used a nut to hold one of the allen bolts which makes an already difficult job an absolute nightmare.

I can't believe the starter could just simply suddenly die. I even bought a decent one last time too.


Grrr.

Click to expand...

Here's a question. When the starter was replaced, was it just the starter motor or the solenoid as well.

Wondering if it has a faulty solenoid ??

Kooky. i see you're not that far away from either myself or saint.. if you could use a hand just shout.

NB: i see keith has also brought up the solenoid question !

I don't specifically remember the positive getting hot, but the negative had smoke coming off it if I held the key for more than a second!

The positive was replaced when the fuse box was replaced so I suppose it's possible the earth cable is corroded but I would have thought the jump lead to the alternator bracket would have got around that?

There is a very loud click coming from the starter each time I try to engage it suggesting that the solenoid is trying to do something.

The entire starter (ie with solenoid) has been replaced each time. It's such a bugger of a job that I've vowed it will be the last time each time I've done it. I might have to think about fixing the thread in the top hole this time if I do need to remove it. It would be soooooooo simple if it were just the allen bolts to worry about instead of also trying to locate, hold and tighten a nut in a totally inaccessible location.

Thanks for the offer of assistance. Unfortunately, it's stuck too close to the house to implement my currently preferred solution.

Datatek said:

Localised heat at the battery terminal suggests, as others have said, a bad connection or the wire is corroded inside the insulation. The starter motor may draw up to 900 amps even if it turns, so any bad connection will show up as a hot spot. Does the positive cable get hot?
The starter solenoid has to operate before the motor is engaged, can you hear it click in?

Click to expand...

Also solenoid run motor at reduced speed until engagement, it could be solenoid shorted

fanatic said:

Also solenoid run motor at reduced speed until engagement, it could be solenoid shorted

Click to expand...

Really? Solenoid is just a copper contactor, so I'd be interested to know how it can affect starter motor speed prior to engagement on a pre engage starter.