This is getting flipping ridiculous

Datatek said:

Really? Solenoid is just a copper contactor, so I'd be interested to know how it can affect starter motor speed prior to engagement on a pre engage starter.

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When I worked repairing starters and alternators there are solenoids that turn motor at reduced speed until contacts close, depending on stater motor model.

Also ring gear wear may be wearing starter bushings and causing it to draw excessively.

Diagnosis via internet isn't exact science

fanatic said:

When I worked repairing starters and alternators there are solenoids that turn motor at reduced speed until contacts close, depending on stater motor model.

Also ring gear wear may be wearing starter bushings and causing it to draw excessively.

Diagnosis via internet isn't exact science

Click to expand...

Never seen a modern pre-engage starter motor with any kind of speed reduction, solenoid whacks the gear into mesh then activates the motor.
Old Bendix type starters had some odd arrangements where the solenoid coil is used in series with the motor.

Just taking this back to basics, have you tried turning the motor over with a socket on the crank to rule out a seized engine? you've got to start somewhere and if you can't work on the car to get the starter off for testing that's the first thing i would check.
Next step is to pull the starter if you cant test it in situ.

Datatek said:

Never seen a modern pre-engage starter motor with any kind of speed reduction, solenoid whacks the gear into mesh then activates the motor.
Old Bendix type starters had some odd arrangements where the solenoid coil is used in series with the motor.

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We used to order parts from Cargo for everything from plant to lorries, that was say 1997

datatek said:

never seen a modern pre-engage starter motor with any kind of speed reduction, solenoid whacks the gear into mesh then activates the motor.

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+1

Heavy Vehicle Starter Motors (Automobile)

As an example of aux or secondary solenoid winding- as I said before- starter motor model Dependant.p

benthomas said:

Just taking this back to basics, have you tried turning the motor over with a socket on the crank to rule out a seized engine? you've got to start somewhere and if you can't work on the car to get the starter off for testing that's the first thing i would check.
Next step is to pull the starter if you cant test it in situ.

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I did think of doing that today. I'll give that a go and report back. Is the crank pulley bolt reverse threaded?

kooky_guy said:

I did think of doing that today. I'll give that a go and report back. Is the crank pulley bolt reverse threaded?

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Turn the crank clockwise, should turn with adequate force and get tighter on compression stoke, then loosen again.

Tsk. Looks like I need to take the fan off to get to the pulley. No idea where my fan spanner is, having just moved.

Will have to wait until I find it. Grr.

I did notice that the earth cable looked a bit manky. Where does it run to?

kooky_guy said:

I did notice that the earth cable looked a bit manky. Where does it run to?

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You'll just have to follow it, i haven't had the need to trace mine.
They usually go the the body close to the battery / fuse box then feed the fuse box and spur off the the engine / chassis.

Never mind where it goes to for now. You need to eliminate bad earth as a fault, especially since you had smoke coming off the cable and you can hear the starter clicking. Get a good heavy gauge jumper cable and run it from your battery negative to the engine block. For good measure, put a jumper between the block and body also. If the starter doesn't spin now, try a jumper from your battery positive to the main positive terminal on the starter (careful!! It's a great bonus to replace the alligator clip on the starter-end of the jumper with a cable shoe that fits the terminal bolt) and try again. If at this point it doesn't spin, and knowing your battery is good, you either have a seized engine or a blown starter. An engine that refuses to crank is often caused by what we call hydraulic lock, which means that coolant has entered one or more cylinders through a blown head gasket or cracked cylinder head.
If you can get a socket on the crank and turn it by hand, you can eliminate the seized/locked engine scenario.

Best of luck,
Henrik

I didn't want to mention hydraulic lock and panic the guy but yes that what it could be.

benthomas said:

I didn't want to mention hydraulic lock and panic the guy but yes that what it could be.

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It takes a fair bit of water to hydraulically lock a cylinder, I would have thought Guy is smart enough to notice that the coolant level had dropped.
A petrol lock is unlikely on an injection engine.

Could be fuel? i've seen an engine hydraulic after a faulty ecu sent the injectors to full bore. In fact i set it on fire pulling the plugs and spinning the engine, that was a fun day! amazing how fast you can waft your jumper when you need to!

benthomas said:

Could be fuel? i've seen an engine hydraulic after a faulty ecu sent the injectors to full bore. In fact i set it on fire pulling the plugs and spinning the engine, that was a fun day! amazing how fast you can waft your jumper when you need to!

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Possible but unlikely IMO as the pumps have to run to feed the injectors.

Datatek said:

Possible but unlikely IMO as the pumps have to run to feed the injectors.

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True,
It was my brothers petrol E30 bmw i set on fire, the electric pump kicked in as soon as the ignition went on and couldn't reach pressure as the injectors were wide open so just ran till it filled the cylinders.

Quick update. I found my fan spanner - rather amazingly it was actually in my tool box!

So fan off and a socket on the crank pulley bolt. Engine turns fine. Gave it a couple of complete turns in the hope it might free a stuck starter, but still no joy.

Had a closer look at the earth lead and the body end seems excellent. No detectable resistance in the earth lead at all.

Smokes like a good Un with anything more than a second on the key.

So, I'm tending towards the idea that the starter is fried. Again.

I'm off on holiday for a couple of weeks shortly so will have the joy of trying to swap it out again when I get back.

In the meantime, if anyone can think of a brill way of fixing the stripped thread in the top bellhousing hole it would make life much simpler!!

All the best.

kooky_guy said:

Quick update. I found my fan spanner - rather amazingly it was actually in my tool box!

So fan off and a socket on the crank pulley bolt. Engine turns fine. Gave it a couple of complete turns in the hope it might free a stuck starter, but still no joy.

Had a closer look at the earth lead and the body end seems excellent. No detectable resistance in the earth lead at all.

Smokes like a good Un with anything more than a second on the key.

So, I'm tending towards the idea that the starter is fried. Again.

I'm off on holiday for a couple of weeks shortly so will have the joy of trying to swap it out again when I get back.

In the meantime, if anyone can think of a brill way of fixing the stripped thread in the top bellhousing hole it would make life much simpler!!

All the best.

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Just because the body end of the cable looks good, it does not meant it has not corroded away inside the insulation Guy. No resistance with a meter means nothing, if the cable is half the thickness it should be, it's going to get hot with the starter load and the volt drop will mean the starter will do nothing. If the positive does not get hot, then I still think it's a wire problem.
Helicoil for the stripped thread or re-tap for an over size bolt.

Helicoil kit for the stripped thread.
if I had been through as many starter motors as you I wouldn't just bolt another one on without wiring it up to your loom and testing it a good few times to make sure that it dissengages when the key is relesed.