This is getting flipping ridiculous

Faster Typer than me!

Ok Keith, I'll try and order a new earth cable - nothing to lose and you make a good point.

The problem with the starter was caused by the Becm randomly spinning it, even when parked up and locked. I hoped it had been fixed but unless I actually catch it doing it again, I have no way of telling one way or the other. It's certainly not doing it all the time like it was before I sent the Becm off to Rick.

See that's what I was saying on page one, if the starter had been engaging or staying engaged with the motor running it on takes a few minutes to feck it, won't seize till it cools down usually.

Hmm. That might explain the weird rattling noise that I've been getting from somewhere deep down on the drivers side occasionally.

So, we think the starter is fried, in which case it seems that the Becm must still be dodgy? Anyone got any suggestions of how I could confirm this? Rick reckoned if it was still doing it then it would need a replacement Becm but I've not had a whisper of a problem from it until now. Previously the starter was running every time I connected the battery!

My.money is on that rattle you've been hearing is the starter engaged on a running engine. I know how I would stop it happening again but I'll keep that to myself I'm not stupid enough to go public on here and get hammered by the do it right brigade

Yes, that rattle suddenly sprang to mind when you suggested the starter was engaging while running - it's intermittent and I hadn't been able to work out what was causing it but with other issues to sort out, it kind of took a back seat.

Well I was thinking of an additional switch but I would rather fix it properly. I just need some way of confirming what is happening.

It's had a brand new fuse box and I can't see anything else that can trigger the starter on the circuit diagram other than the Becm still faulting but replacing it is going to be a big chunk, even via Rick, so I want to be sure.

kooky_guy said:

Yes, that rattle suddenly sprang to mind when you suggested the starter was engaging while running - it's intermittent and I hadn't been able to work out what was causing it but with other issues to sort out, it kind of took a back seat.

Well I was thinking of an additional switch but I would rather fix it properly. I just need some way of confirming what is happening.

It's had a brand new fuse box and I can't see anything else that can trigger the starter on the circuit diagram other than the Becm still faulting but replacing it is going to be a big chunk, even via Rick, so I want to be sure.

Click to expand...

Starter relay being pulled by the circuit within the BECM being grounded by a fault instead of being grounded through the ignition switch.

wammers said:

Starter relay being pulled by the circuit within the BECM being grounded by a fault instead of being grounded through the ignition switch.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's what it went off to be repaired for. Seems like it's not quite fixed.

kooky_guy said:

Yes, that's what it went off to be repaired for. Seems like it's not quite fixed.

Click to expand...

It probably is fixed but you have collateral damage in that the starter is fecked. If it fails to disengage when the motor is running, it will die pretty quickly as I found on my Transit.
Is the fuse box OK?

Datatek said:

It probably is fixed but you have collateral damage in that the starter is fecked. If it fails to disengage when the motor is running, it will die pretty quickly as I found on my Transit.
Is the fuse box OK?

Click to expand...

The rattling has been noticed since the becm was repaired and given that the starter was working fine until the last time the battery went flat then all the symptoms suggest to me that the becm is still buggered.

I have no idea how good the fuse box is. There certainly seems to be no smell of burning or any other symptoms, but I had the original one apart and can't find any obvious signs of problems with that one either - I think the melted starter relay that caused the garage to replace it in the first place was probably melted by the becm fault.

kooky_guy said:

The rattling has been noticed since the becm was repaired and given that the starter was working fine until the last time the battery went flat then all the symptoms suggest to me that the becm is still buggered.

I have no idea how good the fuse box is. There certainly seems to be no smell of burning or any other symptoms, but I had the original one apart and can't find any obvious signs of problems with that one either - I think the melted starter relay that caused the garage to replace it in the first place was probably melted by the becm fault.

Click to expand...

The relay was probably melted by overload from the starter motor although the cycling may not have helped.
I'd stick an LED across the line from the BECM to the relay to see if it's actually the BECM triggering the relay.

Another thought, it may be a problem with the loom from the BECM. On mine the insulation on the loom that goes in the channel under the plastic kick plate in the drivers footwell was worn through by sundry screws left in the channel during manufacture. Worth a look.

Datatek said:

Another thought, it may be a problem with the loom from the BECM. On mine the insulation on the loom that goes in the channel under the plastic kick plate in the drivers footwell was worn through by sundry screws left in the channel during manufacture. Worth a look.

Click to expand...

Wire white with red tracer. Normally grounded by ignition switch to pull starter relay. But grounding anywhere else will give same result.

Cheers, will have a look when I get back from hols. I'm going to have to replace the starter first though as I can't even open the drivers door where it's currently stuck (right up against a holly hedge - it was fun putting the eka code in!)

I'll remember to pull the starter relay once I've done it though.

Last time I pulled the becm I was impressed at the state of the connectors and cables - I was expecting them to be at least slightly crudded up, but they all looked brand new.

Good idea about tracing the starter wire from the becm to the fuse box. I did idly consider that before but assumed the becm repair had fixed it. It doesn't look an easy wire to trace - might be worth just putting a replacement in parallel but will check what I can when I can get the door open!

kooky_guy said:

Cheers, will have a look when I get back from hols. I'm going to have to replace the starter first though as I can't even open the drivers door where it's currently stuck (right up against a holly hedge - it was fun putting the eka code in!)

I'll remember to pull the starter relay once I've done it though.

Last time I pulled the becm I was impressed at the state of the connectors and cables - I was expecting them to be at least slightly crudded up, but they all looked brand new.

Good idea about tracing the starter wire from the becm to the fuse box. I did idly consider that before but assumed the becm repair had fixed it. It doesn't look an easy wire to trace - might be worth just putting a replacement in parallel but will check what I can when I can get the door open!

Click to expand...

A parallel wire will not help as the problem with be a short to the chassis if it's a wire problem. You would have to cut at both ends and replace.

Datatek said:

A parallel wire will not help as the problem with be a short to the chassis if it's a wire problem. You would have to cut at both ends and replace.

Click to expand...

Yes, sorry that's what I meant!

Bonne vacance

Well that was a lovely 2 weeks in Mexico!

Now that I'm limbering up to doing the starter yet again, I'm trying to come up with some sort of method for monitoring what is going on with it to avoid burning yet another one out. Anyone got any thoughts?

So ultimately, I think I will replace the connection between the becm and the starter relay in case it's shorting, but can anyone suggest a way of monitoring it so that I can detect any reoccurences of the problem in case that isn't where the problem is? Just sticking an LED on it isn't really going to help as this appears to have happened mostly while I've not been in the car unless there's a cunning way of making it stay illuminated?

I suppose I could just add one of those horrible 'press to start' buttons that everyone seems to be selling on ebay to properly isolate the starter relay from the becm and the wiring, but I don't really like that idea. I'd much rather fix it properly, but that needs me to be absolutely confident where the fault is.

So any cunning ideas peeps?

I have to at least replace the starter first in order to get the car out enough to be able to open the drivers door to be able to do anything else to it.

I've had a dodgy ignition switch causing random starter motor operation guy, not on a P38 though.
I'd put in one of those FOB operated units that folks are using to isolate the RF receiver.

Datatek said:

I've had a dodgy ignition switch causing random starter motor operation guy, not on a P38 though.
I'd put in one of those FOB operated units that folks are using to isolate the RF receiver.

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I think I need to do that with my RF receiver now that I'm forced to live near other people, but that's further down the list. Wouldn't the BECM involvement requirement preclude a faulty switch though? I'm not keen on trying to bypass the problem as it's just going to get complicated. Think I may have to look at the circuit diagram again.

The thing isn't idling properly at the moment either so I don't want to have to keep flicking half a dozen switches each time it stalls at traffic lights! It'd be like the whalesharking boat I was on a couple of days ago when both of his outboards wouldn't idle - a constant series of beepers, alarms and frantic switching of numbers of switches every few seconds to try and keep them running whilst trying not to bump into swimmers, other boats and the sharks all at the same time...

I've half convinced myself that the random refusing to idle and symptoms of fuel starvation were all down to the starter randomly operating now too...