TD5 Oil grade question again sorry.

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The link sounds OK... but imho, if the recommendation is a max of 6 monthly intervals, I would look for something else. Technology advancement in lubrication these days is such that if you oil doesn't cope with upwards of 15-19,000km intervals then a little investigation needs to be undertaken. The 3000-mile interval is a joke - you can research this re a CEO's comment to US car manufacturers.

As said earlier, the ACEA specification is more important, but most engine oils would exceed this benchmark. I would add that unless you are using a product with a viscosity that suits the operating temperature, your engine/oil will show signs of early wear/degradation. The lower viscosity (for winter), is useful for determining its suitability during a cold start.

Up to 90% of engine wear can be related to the starting sequence, where the damage is being done as the engine is trying to circulate oil quick enough in the first few seconds of the combustion cycle to aid compression. That's why the pour point is important to me - in the South Island of NZ.

After a few minutes the low viscosity rating is not relevant because by this stage, the oil viscosity modifiers have done their job and the oil is behaving at its higher value.

In addition, if you aren't using a full synthetic in a diesel engine, I'm also very interested in your thinking process to come by that decision. ;)
 
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Here we go again.

The definitive wise words of the great Charles Y -

People get all excited about oil grades, so they get ripped off by the oil sellers who make BIG BUCKS selling ridiculously expensive potions in fancy plastic bottles.

My oil comes in a big steel barrel, 210 litres at a time. No messing!

Engine oil is engine oil. Start there.

Next, is it a petrol engine or a diesel?
Petrol engines get the crappy puny left-overs oils because they work under a lot less strain, and don't get polluted with carbon black.
Diesel engines get tougher grades of oil because these engines work harder all the time and there's a lot more carbon black gets into it down past the piston rings.
So diesel engine oils are far better oils, for ALL engines, petrol or diesel.

The grades to use hardly matters at all as long as it is an ENGINE oil. You will probably destroy your engine if you fill the sump with EP140 axle oil for example, but any engine oil with more or less any combination of SAE grades from 5 to 50 with or without a W is going to be just dandy,

In really REALLY cold weather a LOW grade number will make starting slightly easier especially if is has a W too, such as 10W-40 or even thinner, 5W-30 for instance.

In the summer, maybe a 20-50 would be good, with or without the W.

But, DO NOT GET NEUROTIC and DO NOT GET RIPPED OFF!

Choose a good basic grade of oil such as any of the tractor universals with a grade of about 15W/40 and off you go knowing you are using the best there is and not getting robbed.

When you think of the abuse farmers give their diesel engines, you can be sure the oil people supply the best of stuff!

Just repeat after me - "Fully synthetic oils are NOT better lubricants. They just cost ten times as much and last up to twice as long".

The maths isn't that difficult to work out.

Hey, I should add this. Basically oils have a grade number that says how thick (or runny) it is at a certain temperature. I think the SAE oils were tested at 60°F. SAE is the USA Society of Automotive Engineers.

So, a SAE 30 grade oil is runnier than a SAE 40 grade, which would be a little thinner than a SAE 50. SAE 50 would be thicker than SAE 40 or any grade number less.

Now then, long ago in the early days of motoring in VERY COLD temperatures some oils tended to get far too THICK compared to other oils even of the same basic SAE grade, and engines were often so gummed up by thick gooey oil they would not even start. I have experienced that in my early motorbike days. My Triumph 500 GP was a brute to kick-start if SAE 40 oil was in the tank even though it had a "dry sump". The oil was like syrup in cold weather.

In those days there were no so-called "multi-grade" oils, and most cars would be given clean oil every 3,000 miles, using a SAE 20 in winter and a SAE 40 in the summer. These oils were later called MONO grade oils. Chancers used SAE 30 all the time.

The oil companies put their brains in top gear and worked out ways to make oils that stayed thin (like a SAE 20) when cold and stayed quite thick (like a SAE 40) when hot. These oils behaved as if they had multiple grades, so they called them multi-grade oils, and they gave them TWO grade numbers such as SAE 15-40 to indicate it behaves like a SAE 15 when cold, and SAE 40 when hot. The W such as 15W-40 just indicates a slightly enhanced cold weather flowing ability.

So ... why do the User Manuals specify all those grades and BRANDS of oils? Easy - because the oil companies pay them BIG BUCKS to do that! An incredible amount of money is spent on oil advertising. They used to say that Castrol spent more money advertising GTX than they spent making the oil! In those days Castrol didn't tell you the grade and the oil was a pathetic blend almost a monograde. The only clever thing about it was the incredible HYPE. Smart people used Duckhams 20-50, but that didn't last after BP bought Duckhams. Things have changed since hopefully. But remember, advertising costs are factored in to the cost of the oil, so guess who pays for every penny of it at the end of the day.

Buy quality oils, buy in bulk, do not buy "trendy" or "synthetic" oils and use the good value to change the oil and filter every 5-6,000 miles.

Changing the oil (that is, draining it right out) is BY FAR the most effective way of removing all the crap, acids, water, carbon black, metal fragments and so on. Using synthetic oils for twice as long means all that bad stuff stays in the engine much longer, eating away at your bearing rings and pistons all the time.

DIY oil and filter changes are so easy, and so cheap, we should do it often. It costs me under £10 to change the oil and filter in my Disco TD5. That's a tad less than a LR main dealer would charge!

CharlesY
 
Bravo ^^^^^^^^

:cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:

However if you feel a need to only put the most expensive oil you can find in your vehicle in the mistaken belief it must be the best
















carry on ;)

bothers me not one bit :)
 
Almost completely agree with trewey :D

Oil grades matter a little more in newer engines as, the engines are designed fir slightly thinner oils so using a thicker oil isnt as good but ... its not going to do that much harm either ....


But yes if you're in a temperate area (uk) oil grades don't matter as much as say in canada or russia or iran
 
They have codes on them like B1 or A1.

I tend to buy from companies I have heard of rather than big name companies.

Years ago Esso was good oil, now it is difficult to find. Now I buy by code and price. But Fuchs seems to get recommended a lot.

Years ago I misread a manual and ran an old and tuned (fast road Rootes Group 1600) on Superlube with 10,000 mile changes (oil changes vs full service). No bearing wear after 70,000 miles.
 
only one (I hope short) opinion of mine...believe me or not...in this particular case IMO RAVE is not completely accurate(there are other cases too:() ... what ever oil you use make sure it's specified on it: Suitable for unit injector diesel engines. ... i made serious research in this area and i can tell that not fully synth oils have a certain electric conductivity due to mineral microparticles and that's not good for a Td5 (or similar engines which have electronic unit injectors merged in the oil)) cos the injector's solenoids are connected to the loom within this oil... i'n not gonna keep a whole theory here but simplifying things about engine oil like Td5 was a tractor might have side effects...i'm not saying it will not run but there might be a difference HOW it runs and for how long... that's all, just think about it


one example http://www.valvolineeurope.com/serb...iesel_5w-40/product-information?category=cars , now somebody find me a mineral oil which has this specification( i mean the unit injector thing)
 
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sierrafery said:
one example DuraBlend Diesel 5W-40 Car Engine Oil - Valvoline , now somebody find me a mineral oil which has this specification( i mean the unit injector thing)
Click to expand...


Hi Fery, the only small problem I have is that in the Valvoline example, it does say for EUI engines, but it doesn't say why?

That's a bit like saying "that this 95 unleaded petrol has been specially formulated for 2, 3, 4,6 and 8 cylinder engines; fuel injected and turbo-charged etc etc" but they all do that sir! - in other words without having any explanation from the manufacturer about WHY this engine oil is different from others in relation to our type of injectors it is meaningless.

Cheers mate,

Dave
 
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Trewey said:
Here we go again.

The definitive wise words of the great Charles Y -

People get all excited about oil grades, so they get ripped off by the oil sellers who make BIG BUCKS selling ridiculously expensive potions in fancy plastic bottles.

It's common knowledge that profit margins for mineral oils are much higher, than synthetics.

My oil comes in a big steel barrel, 210 litres at a time. No messing!

Engine oil is engine oil. Start there.

Next, is it a petrol engine or a diesel?
Petrol engines get the crappy puny left-overs oils because they work under a lot less strain, and don't get polluted with carbon black.
Diesel engines get tougher grades of oil because these engines work harder all the time and there's a lot more carbon black gets into it down past the piston rings.
So diesel engine oils are far better oils, for ALL engines, petrol or diesel.

Actually, oils are designed/formulated for different purposes. No one would put a diesel oil in a petrol engine, there is no point. Bigger than how hard a diesel engine works, is the fact that the oil in a diesel engine is subjected to temperatures of 550+ deg C (whereas it is only 160 deg C in petrol) pre-combustion. Synthetics came about because their ability to have a greater HTHS component.

The grades to use hardly matters at all as long as it is an ENGINE oil. You will probably destroy your engine if you fill the sump with EP140 axle oil for example, but any engine oil with more or less any combination of SAE grades from 5 to 50 with or without a W is going to be just dandy,

In really REALLY cold weather a LOW grade number will make starting slightly easier especially if is has a W too, such as 10W-40 or even thinner, 5W-30 for instance.

But even better, go by the pour point. It is all about getting oil to the engine components during that initial start up phase.

In the summer, maybe a 20-50 would be good, with or without the W.

But, DO NOT GET NEUROTIC and DO NOT GET RIPPED OFF!

Choose a good basic grade of oil such as any of the tractor universals with a grade of about 15W/40 and off you go knowing you are using the best there is and not getting robbed.

Undertaking this on this recommendation alone is imo foolish. Tractor engine ECU's usually configure them as 'generator engines' because of their constant rpm requirements.

When you think of the abuse farmers give their diesel engines, you can be sure the oil people supply the best of stuff!

Really?

Just repeat after me - "Fully synthetic oils are NOT better lubricants. They just cost ten times as much and last up to twice as long".

Research proves this statement wrong. Synthetic oils today for diffs and transfer cases and auto boxes can last up to 100,000 miles - you just have to decide if you want to spend up to $250 to do so.

The maths isn't that difficult to work out.

But the 10x cost to 2x time longevity statement is poor maths, and simply not true.

Hey, I should add this. Basically oils have a grade number that says how thick (or runny) it is at a certain temperature. I think the SAE oils were tested at 60°F. SAE is the USA Society of Automotive Engineers.

So, a SAE 30 grade oil is runnier than a SAE 40 grade, which would be a little thinner than a SAE 50. SAE 50 would be thicker than SAE 40 or any grade number less.

Now then, long ago in the early days of motoring in VERY COLD temperatures some oils tended to get far too THICK compared to other oils even of the same basic SAE grade, and engines were often so gummed up by thick gooey oil they would not even start. I have experienced that in my early motorbike days. My Triumph 500 GP was a brute to kick-start if SAE 40 oil was in the tank even though it had a "dry sump". The oil was like syrup in cold weather.

In those days there were no so-called "multi-grade" oils, and most cars would be given clean oil every 3,000 miles, using a SAE 20 in winter and a SAE 40 in the summer. These oils were later called MONO grade oils. Chancers used SAE 30 all the time.

The oil companies put their brains in top gear and worked out ways to make oils that stayed thin (like a SAE 20) when cold and stayed quite thick (like a SAE 40) when hot. These oils behaved as if they had multiple grades, so they called them multi-grade oils, and they gave them TWO grade numbers such as SAE 15-40 to indicate it behaves like a SAE 15 when cold, and SAE 40 when hot. The W such as 15W-40 just indicates a slightly enhanced cold weather flowing ability.

So ... why do the User Manuals specify all those grades and BRANDS of oils? Easy - because the oil companies pay them BIG BUCKS to do that! An incredible amount of money is spent on oil advertising. They used to say that Castrol spent more money advertising GTX than they spent making the oil! In those days Castrol didn't tell you the grade and the oil was a pathetic blend almost a monograde. The only clever thing about it was the incredible HYPE. Smart people used Duckhams 20-50, but that didn't last after BP bought Duckhams. Things have changed since hopefully. But remember, advertising costs are factored in to the cost of the oil, so guess who pays for every penny of it at the end of the day.

I agree here. Castrol GTX didn't even make the grade or comply with API statements. But note this, US engine design/manufacturing is completely different to Jap/Euro designs, which led the later to develop their own ACEA, (ATIEL, ATC and CONCAWE) which were more stringent than API/ISLAC standards. Even many Japanese and European car manufacturers actually specify their own requirements directly.

Buy quality oils, buy in bulk, do not buy "trendy" or "synthetic" oils and use the good value to change the oil and filter every 5-6,000 miles.

Although, there is every chance that depending on how you drive, and what grade of oil you use, that that interval is either too short, or too long - and developments in oil production can extend oil intervals considerably, and even further when you add fancy bolt-on filtration kits.

Changing the oil (that is, draining it right out) is BY FAR the most effective way of removing all the crap, acids, water, carbon black, metal fragments and so on. Using synthetic oils for twice as long means all that bad stuff stays in the engine much longer, eating away at your bearing rings and pistons all the time.

Actually, is the CHEAPEST way to remove contamination. That is all.

DIY oil and filter changes are so easy, and so cheap, we should do it often. It costs me under £10 to change the oil and filter in my Disco TD5. That's a tad less than a LR main dealer would charge!

CharlesY
Click to expand...

Each to their own, I guess.

I choose oils based on results of the following indicators:

• Pour Point (critical value between mineral vs synthetic comparisons).
• Flash and Fire Point
• Kinematic Viscosity
• Viscosity Index
• High Temperature vs High Shear Viscosity
• NOACK Volatility
• Total Base Number (TBN)

Lets look at these individually.

• Pour Point

One of the most important indicators is the pour point. This one aspect mitigates the biggest contributor to engine wear, and that is how long it takes for the oil to reach vital parts of the engine during start-up (especially when cold). A low pour point (measured in °C or an index), is the lowest temperature or index of its utility. The lower the pour point, the sooner the extremities of the engine are lubricated. A good target is a temperature lower than -40°C.

• Viscosity Index

The#viscosity index#is a measure of how much the oil's viscosity changes as temperature changes. A higher viscosity index indicates the viscosity changes less with temperature than a lower viscosity index. Don't confuse this index with the SAE viscosity grade/rating. And remember also, this is the index for when the oil is new, not after it has performed a few thousand kilometres.

• NOACK Volatility

This test determines the physical evaporation weight loss of lubricants in a high temperature service. A maximum of 15% evaporation loss is allowable to meet API SL and ILSAC GF-3 (now obsolete) specifications. Many automotive OEM oil specifications require lower than 10%, but a good target is lower than 9%.

• Flash and Fire Point

The flash point is#the lowest temperature at which the oil gives off vapours which then can ignite, but not continue to burn. Described another way, it is the temperature to which the tendency of the oil will form a flammable mixture with air. It is dangerous for the oil in a motor to ignite and burn, so a high flash point is preferred. The fire point is the temperature to which the combustible mixture of the oil will continue to burn or be sustained, and is usually 8-10% above the flash point. This is not the auto-ignition temperature of the lubricant.

• High Temperature / High Shear

The High Temperature/High Shear test measures a lubricant's viscosity under severe high temperature and shear conditions that resemble highly-loaded journal and tapered bearings in engines. In order to prevent bearing wear, it is important for a lubricant to maintain its protective viscosity under severe operating conditions. The minimum High Temperature/High Shear viscosity for a 30 weight oil is 2.9 cSt, and for a 40 weight it is 3.5 cSt. It is measured at 150°C.

• Kinematic Viscosity

Kinematic viscosity is the ratio of the#inertial#force to the viscous force, and is measured in centiStokes.
It is graded by measuring the time it takes for a standard amount of oil to flow through a standard orifice, at standard temperatures. The longer it takes, the higher the viscosity and thus a higher SAE index. As these values alter with temperature, then the indexes are given at 100°C and 40°C. These figures are really only used to establish the oils viscosity index in the first place.

• Total Base Number (TBN)

The Total Base Number (TBN) describes the acid neutralization ability of an oil, and therefore higher TBN oils provide longer lasting acid neutralization. It is a measurement of the reserve#ability#of an oil to absorb the harmful chemicals and acids that develop during the combustion process. The resulting quantity is determined as mg KOH/gram (of lubricant). A good rule of thumb is a TBN comfortably in higher than 9, although it should be in a range from 10 to 13. This is one of the values that independent testers look for when conducting used oil analysis (UOA).

Happy days!
 
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