TD5 Occassional power loss

Dear All,

I think my 1999 TD5 may be developing an engine fault. Recently and occasionally it loses power, usually when cold, on acceleration. Having said that I also noticed the same with a hot engine during a motorway journey. The fault does not persist but I expect will not just go away. Any advice for things to check please.

Best,

Pat

Pat Bryant said:

Dear All,

I think my 1999 TD5 may be developing an engine fault. Recently and occasionally it loses power, usually when cold, on acceleration. Having said that I also noticed the same with a hot engine during a motorway journey. The fault does not persist but I expect will not just go away. Any advice for things to check please.

Best,

Pat

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Hi Pat, it could be 100 different things from running out of fuel to a premature seizing of the engine.

Try to provide us with more info.

Does it smoke when suffering a power loss etc etc etc

Thanks for the quick response and sorry to be so vague. I will try to provide more info but, at the moment, I also have a flat battery. My wife tends to drive the car day to day and she has told me that she had recently revved it hard from cold on the drive (after what she thought was a 'lumpy' start). This produced some black smoke but normally the exhaust is as clean as a whistle.

Thanks,

Pat

battery condition is important ,also worth checking wiring connector for injector loom under front of rocker box ,stripping and cleaning fuel pump filter in tank has helped some

check intercooler and pipes, clean maf.Turbo Waste Gate Control Valve renew, and check pipes for splits.did the afore mentioned to mine as same symptoms huge difference.

Revving hard form cold - mega mega bad idea for all kinds of reasons. Black smoke is unburnt fuel so either too much fuel or too little air.

Check hoses etc as suggested then get the diagnostics / error codes read, and cleared, when it happens again read the codes again.

If I had to take a guess I'd say it was the injector harness. Have a look at the red plug where it goes into the ECU and see if there's oil inside there. That seems to fit the symptoms, but so can other things.

Dear Chaps,

Much useful advice and comment, thanks. I have checked what I can ( on the drive in between rain: these faults never happen in the long dry days).
Fuel filter; no water. Injector plug under front of rocker cover oily, now clean. I could not find the 'red' plug to the ECU. No noise from fuel pump and I thought that access to the in tank filter would be rather difficult.
Air filter OK and MAF unit looks good too. Turbo hose goes rigid on revving. I don't know how to see if the waste gate is operating but did not see any movement when revving. Battery fully charged

My initial inquiry was a bit thin on detail so after a bit of more critical driving I can now report the following:

Will not go much over 3000rpm under load. No smoke from exhaust. No smell of diesel anywhere. Engine reaches temperature as usual and is stable. No other warning lights showing on instrument panel. My guess would be fuel starvation but I don't know what other effects might come from turbo faults or the ECU/injector side of things
One last thing: how do I rev the engine from under the bonnet?

Best,

Pat

To find the red plug you need to remove the screw holding the ECU in - by the cars jack - and lift the whole ECU out - the red plug is at the bottom - quite large and hard to miss. If the plug on the head was oily this will be for sure.

No noise from the fuel pump ?? there sure should be but then if it made no noise at all your car wouldn't start.

It will be hard to check the turbo actuator in 'live' operation but you should be able to move it - it is the bit that looks like a tin can with a threaded bar in it - you should be able to move the spindle up and into the can at least - this proves the linkage is OK.

No more than 3000 rpm really does sound like limp mode as a result of overboost in which case you are partly correct it is fuel starvation - deliberate fuel starvation - the ECU does it to protect the engine.

Are you really checking the turbo / air hoses when you say they go stiff when running? especially if you aren't actually touching them whilst A.N.Other works the loud pedal.

There is no in tank filter, leastways not one that is servicable - you need to take the whole pump out of the tank, I think it has a gauze filter on it but it isn't something that you can buy a replacement for.

While we are on that topic - rev the engine from under the bonnet - you don't it is all done by the ECU via sensors on the accelerator pedal.

You really shouldn't be able to feel turbo hoses stiffen especially with no load on the engine - i.e. not driven. You can't really check the MAF visually, unless the wires ar eboth broken but they are damned hard to see - need to measure it with either a diagnostic tool or a multimeter really.

Does this car still have the EGR fitted - exhaust gas recirc? - it could be stuck open I guess.

BenKenobi said:

1. No noise from the fuel pump ?? there sure should be but then if it made no noise at all your car wouldn't start.


2. No more than 3000 rpm really does sound like limp mode as a result of overboost in which case you are partly correct it is fuel starvation - deliberate fuel starvation - the ECU does it to protect the engine.



3. There is no in tank filter, leastways not one that is servicable - you need to take the whole pump out of the tank, I think it has a gauze filter on it but it isn't something that you can buy a replacement for.

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1. It will start with a faulty fuel pump but not deliver full power. No noise means no pump.

2. No more than 3000rpm could be faulty pump; faulty wastegate modulator.

3. There is a filter at the bottom of the pump which is serviceable and gets blocked up from the diesel rail return pipe. Remove filter from pump, clean with White spirits or petrol and allow to dry before re-installation.

By servicable I meant buying a replacement, if it is I have never seen one in the usual places - but as I said it is still a pump out job. Should be a lot of noise when you initially turn the key, no noise means no pump means no run - could be that you can't hear it through the floor but it should make some noise at all times.

Only real test is fuel pressure - remove temperature sensor from regulator and plumb i a pressure gauge - should be 58 psi or so ...

BenKenobi said:

To find the red plug you need to remove the screw holding the ECU in - by the cars jack - and lift the whole ECU out - the red plug is at the bottom - quite large and hard to miss. If the plug on the head was oily this will be for sure.

No noise from the fuel pump ?? there sure should be but then if it made no noise at all your car wouldn't start.

It will be hard to check the turbo actuator in 'live' operation but you should be able to move it - it is the bit that looks like a tin can with a threaded bar in it - you should be able to move the spindle up and into the can at least - this proves the linkage is OK.

No more than 3000 rpm really does sound like limp mode as a result of overboost in which case you are partly correct it is fuel starvation - deliberate fuel starvation - the ECU does it to protect the engine.

Are you really checking the turbo / air hoses when you say they go stiff when running? especially if you aren't actually touching them whilst A.N.Other works the loud pedal.

There is no in tank filter, leastways not one that is servicable - you need to take the whole pump out of the tank, I think it has a gauze filter on it but it isn't something that you can buy a replacement for.

While we are on that topic - rev the engine from under the bonnet - you don't it is all done by the ECU via sensors on the accelerator pedal.

You really shouldn't be able to feel turbo hoses stiffen especially with no load on the engine - i.e. not driven. You can't really check the MAF visually, unless the wires ar eboth broken but they are damned hard to see - need to measure it with either a diagnostic tool or a multimeter really.

Does this car still have the EGR fitted - exhaust gas recirc? - it could be stuck open I guess.

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Dear Ben,

All points gratefully absorbed. I am sure the fuel pump is 'whirring', as you say if it did not there would be no fuel circuit, hence no running.

The wastegate is solid! I even slackened the nuts holding the vacuum actuator and can find no movement at all. I would not expect this to need much force as it is opened by a small vac can. Hence I am much persuaded by your 'limp' mode description; especially as there do not seem to be any other symptoms.

My turbo check was on the short soft hose connecting the turbo to the main intercooler hose. This is flaccid but stiffens when the engine run by A N Wife. Yes, I just visually checked the MAF wires. Another of our members on this thread mentioned the 'in tank filter'

EGR is still in place. I have read about the wisdom of getting rid and intend to do so when I retire next year. Is it easy to check this for a stuck condition?

Sincerely,

Pat

Really sounds like your waste gate isn't functional and overboost for sure will be the result.

The EGR can be checked but you need to pull off the large pipe from the intercooler to look inside it - kind of tricky so a mirror and a torch will help but the battery box can get in the way of a good view. You should be able to see up into the EGR and see it almost unobstructed, but why not just take it off and clean it up while you are at it. If it is really bad you may find that the MAP sensor in the inlet manifold is also caked - maybe even this is the faulty item since it is responsible for driving the waste gate signals -and if it hasn't worked for a while and your waste gate hasn't moved as a result ... well sounds plausible.

Problem is going to be freeing off the waste gate.

Well, I tried a few things and thanks to all the discussion do not feel so bad about taking it to my local garage. They are quite decent and certainly know their Land Rovers [e.g. I tried to get the tracking done correctly for some time. Many places refused to do it; one struggled manfully but never managed. Even the main agent , Williams, said it was tricky and so costly. They just did the job and it was right, even to centring the steering wheel.]
I would love to strip the turbo down and 'have a go' but time and lack of a warm (any) garage are against me at the moment.

Again, thanks for your interest in my problem. The internet has given us a rich bed of 'opinion' but this forum, in my experience, is a source of real and generously shared expertise.

Sincerely,

Pat

injector loom and injector seals a favourite

Partly perhaps but a waste gate that doesn't move can't be ignored ...

Dear All,

Fault is now resolved so here is my report. I did take it in to my 'local' after some DIY checks which I told them about. They read many fault codes (including complaints about the air conditioning; which is not fitted to my car). This was after they had had the vehicle for a couple of hours and I left them to it "eliminating the reported faults". Later in the day (Friday) I called again. Having changed air and fuel filters the vehicle was out on a road test, when a call came through saying my car had broken down. At this point I had to (worryingly) accept that work would resume on Monday. I had taken my car in with, as far as I could tell, just a lack of power due to not revving beyond 3000; no other signals of decay. Now it would barely run and I did wonder what they had been up to.
Anyway, on Monday afternoon (why did I ever doubt them) I got a call saying all was now restored. It was the fuel pump, and in an earlier post I did say I couldn't hear it running but, as was pointed out if it wasn't then neither would the engine, I imagined it was such a fine Land Rover pump it was almost silent (regardless of the fact that I had heard it before and really knew that there was a sound from the back when switching on the ignition).
I received a light rebuke from the mechanic for not keeping up with the maintenance schedule here and paid him £340 for his work and wisdom. Interestingly the bill included a few quid for a fuel additive which he obviously thought was required: an injector cleaner I think.
So that's about it except that they told me that the turbo waste gate was working properly after I had said that I could not move it at all by hand. They did also check EGR system MAF etc.

Well, hope this helps others and thanks again for your input.

Best,

Pat