Paranoid about Parabolics

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glasgowkiss

Active Member
Posts
144
Location
Glasgow
Hi guys

Either Bessie has got worms or the rear springs are flatter than a supermodel's t**s. :doh:

I've contacted a few of the guys who are part of the Land Rover Club I'm a member of, and they're quoting normal prices (Paddock prices I think!) for the parabolics and about £30-£40 for each extended shock.

The total price I've been quoted and this is assuming the WORST case scenario, which means not 5 hours but 10 hours labour, means the total would be about £900. :eek:

I've searched the forums to see there was a lengthy thread in December 2007 about parabolics and I'm wondering if it's something I could fit with basic tools and space or am I better biting the bullet and getting the professionals in.

Any advice guys?
 
Hi

I see that standard springs are a fraction of the cost, at £20-£30 for the pair, but as I plan on keeping the car for as long as I possibly can, and drive it a fair bit, I'm hearing that parabolics are much better. Yeah, they're pricey at £200-£230 for the four, then there's the £160 for the shocks. It's steep, but I think long term it'll be worth it.

I'm wondering however if I were to get the parts, how hard or easy or tricky, etc it would be to do it myself. Is there much of a difference fitting normal springs to parabolics, guys?

Cheers
 
Man why are you bothering with Parabolocks tbh your ride will change totality (for the worst in my opinion) stick to standard stuff you wont regret it "But i want to go off roading" i hear you cry

This is mine on standard springs and shocks, you don't need any more than this,
If your not getting these results, take them off strip the leaves and clean them, and greases them up, then put them back on, do the job yourself, its easy to do and will take you a weekend, you'll learn from it, and have the satisfaction that you did it yourself

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keep your eyes open for a set of STANDARD springs, last set cost me less than 50 quid - they'll last for decades

what i meant to say was - find some STANDARD USED ORGINAL springs - you really will be wasting money buying any of the replacement standard springs these days - they appear to be made out of resin bonded MDF

and for what it's worth those pairobolics arent much better - plenty of peeps will say they are, simply because they've just replaced a set of 25+ year old springs with some new, so you'd expect an improvement - but how long will the ride stay stable and have they tried a set of good used orginals to compare ?

but it's your money to waste
 
Ah but you see, my fine, fine fellows. I have ALWAYS taken the advice from this forum, I LOVE my Land Rover, and want the best.

If you are telling me (and it certainly sounds that way) that standard springs are the way to go, then I will, without question.

I can't afford to spend THAT kind of money at the moment, and standard springs will certainly help me out of a hole (pun intended).

Dopey I most certainly DO NOT get that kind of articulation off road, but need it as I do compete in RTV's with www.slroc.co.uk.

My rear springs are totally flat, and for the sake of £30 or so, I think I'll replace them.

And, yes, I would rather do it myself, and I'm glad to hear it can be done by an amateur.

If anyone else has some hints or tips, do let me know.

Thanks:D
 
you really will be wasting money buying any of the replacement standard springs these days

Don't buy new, as the man says, and they are a very bad fit, they are BENT in to shape rather and cast that way, second hand one are made as they should be, you will get the best out of them that way, again strip them, clean them, grease them, and put them back on, remember they are handed, the one with the bigger bend is for the drivers side (makes up for the weight of the driver and full tank of fuel) take your time and try and enjoy it lol
 
:eek:Hi

I'm really impressed and quite reassured by your messages. I see LR orphanage has a set of 4 for £39.99 each for rear and £34.99 for the front.

My front springs are rusty and but are fine. The back ones are flat, the square ring that goes round them is starting to open up, and they really are very flat.

Do you think it's worth my while trying to take it all to bits and do something with them, or order the ones from LR Orphanage?

How do you clean and strip them? A sanding disk? I've not a clue.

Cheers
 
Parabolics do make a difference to the ride.... but then so do good standard springs.
I went Para's and I thought the way the truck behaved was a LOT better than others on good stock springs, but I think the trick is that you have to have decent gas dampers to make them work.
I did a complete spring & damper swap in a week-end, on my drive.... you need an angle grinder, a BIG hammer and some BIG spanners and sockets, and even then a long length of scaffold pole comes in helpful!
Used to have this on my webby, if its any use

The link to Mick Forresters is probably worth a look..... he has pictures!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Turning a New Leaf!

A Step by Step guide to remove & Replace Series Land Rover Leaf Springs


Introduction
An often asked question is 'How hard is it to replace my springs?'. Usually after the decision has been made to fit Parabolic Springs, or just because the old leaf springs are rusty, flat or cracked.
I did this job early on to Wheezil, and at the time hadn't really started Tef's-tQ, so I didn't take any pics or do a write up. This article started as a 'Step by step' set of instructions on the web-forum, and after it had dropped off the font pages was so often asked about and copied, it became my first 'how-to' for the site, and I started doing more, and photo-blogging all my bits of mechanical DIY!
Any way, I'm afraid that there are no pictures; I had asked if any-one following the instructions could take some pics for me, and I DID get sent some, but unfortunately they were lost in one of the hard drive failures I suffered a year or so ago; my apologies to who-ever offered contributions! If any-one could offer some pics though, would be nice to illustrate the sequence.
However, I did find an article, Land Rover 109 Safari Parabolic Springs on Mick Forster's web-site, where he has fitted up new parabolics to his CSW, which is quite useful, and has some pics too.
So, to answer the question.......
How Hard & Preparation
Swapping leaf-springs is not hugely complicated or difficult, but it isn't a small job. The main difficulties are generally in getting very old worn and rusty big lumps of metal apart, that really don't want to budge. Typically, with a bit of planning, and the parts and tools to hand, a relatively competent first timer should be able to do the whole job in a week end.
If you are on a budget, and hoping to re-use as many old parts as possible, well, the suspension gets a pounding and lives in a harsh environment. Everything down there rusts badly. It may be worth looking at your budget and rethinking if it is worth it. Cutting may be the only way to get a lot of parts apart. On which topic, you may like to see separate article, Spring Cleaning!
If you are starting out with new springs though, best advice is not to 'cheap skate'. Get new U-bolts, and new spring & shackle pins, new shackle plates, damper pins, retention washers and split pins, and probably new chassis bushes as well. A big pot of copper grease, will be handy too. As will an angle grinder and a plentiful supply of new cutting disks!
Also check your spanners; from memory the trusty 9/16"AF & 5/8"AF get a fair bit of use, but I think that some of the heads on the shackle & chassis pins are up near an inch, beyond the range of most tool kits; might be worth a check and if necessary a trip to your local motor-factors.
So, step by step, then.....
Step 1 - Gaining access

  • Loosen wheel nuts for the corner your starting at.
  • Jack the car up; preferably from under the chassis..
  • Prop the chassis on axle stands, inboard of the spring, so that you have good access to both front spring hanger & rear shackles.
    Do BOTH sides, because you will want movement in the axle to line everything up.
  • Remove wheel for the corner you are working on.
    You may want to remove opposite side wheel too, to unload suspension on that side, and get best clearance for shuffling the axle about.
  • Overview.
    Now with axle 'loose', chassis firmly supported on axle stands, you can start work. So make a cuppa and have a quick tidy up. Get everything you need to hand, and stow everything you don't need out of the way to give yourself space.
Step 2 - Remove Damper & U-Bolts

  • First remove old damper - this will give you more room.
    • On SWB Landies, the damper has an 'eye' at each end with double rubber bushes in. Top end is bolted through the chassis, while the bottom end is on a pin on the spring-plate, held in place with a large washer and split-pin. (more of this later)
    • On LWB Landies, the REAR dampers don't have an 'eye' they have a threaded pin on the end of the damper that fits through a hole in the chassis plate, with a rubber bush on either end, and a nut pulling them all together.
  • Now, the axle is on top of the spring. When you drop the spring, it will drop down with it, and you wont be able to get at the u-bolt nuts from underneath, so next put a jack under the axle to support its weight, then either undo or cut the U-bolts off. This will allow the spring plate to be removed
    • if you have removed the damper already, the plate should be free to be cleaned, prepped or painted, and / or if you take other's advice, fit the damper to it before refitting.
  • Overview


    The axle will now be just resting on the spring. Time to have a look and decide how to tackle removing it, so make another cuppa!
    • If you start 'undoing' at the shackle end, either by unbolting, or by cutting, the old spring will hinge down from the front. But the axle is on top of it, though hopefully still supported by the jack.
    • It would be helpful to not move the axle any more than we have to, it's probably still attached to the chassis by the flexible brake line, and we'd like NOT to stress that. Make sure that the axle is well supported, and a couple more axle stands could be useful here.
  • To give yourself some 'wiggle-room', it may be a good idea to go round the other side, and remove the damper and U-bolts from the other side, but leave the axle resting on the spring. Conversely, it may give you better support, to leave the other side bolted up, and do one spring at a time. sip that cuppa and make a decision.
    • Likewise, whether you undo the chassis end of the shackle, or the spring end of the shackle is up to you.
  • If you are replacing shackles any way, just undo the chassis end, and leave the old shackles on the spring.
  • If you are not replacing chassis bushes, and just changing the spring, undo the spring end only, and leave shackles hanging from chassis - but be warned, you will need to loosen chassis end off, and 'settle' the suspension when you have put everything back together again, or the moralistic bush will try and twist everything to where it wants it not where you do!
  • Whether it is easier to get the shackles off a loose spring, or a firm chassis is open to debate. If on loose spring, you have more access and room to manoeuvre, but need to find some way to hold everything 'firm' to get good purchase and turn nut against bolt and not the assembly, vice or work bench. So, getting on with it........
Step 3 - Dropping Spring

  • With the axle supported, the spring can be un-attached from the chassis at either end and dropped away... I say DROPPED, it is a heavy chunk of steel, and if you haven't run out of axle stands, blocks of wood or jacks yet.... good idea to put something under the spring to hold it up so it doesn't fall on you whilst you are under it undoing buts or bolts or wielding an angry-grinder!
  • You've made a decision on whether to try and undo the chassis or spring end of the shackle, so that's the first end to tackle, to drop the 'tail' of the spring. With that undone, it can be lowered and rested on the floor.
  • Then the 'nose' end of the spring at the chassis bush can be tackled, and when that is undone, the spring completely lowered out of the way and removed.
  • The bolts, as mentioned, though can be a bit of a bludger, and I recommended having an angry-grinder to hand.
DON'T wade in and grind the heads off the chassis or shackle pins! That's the only means you have of twisting them, they go through 'captive' threads before the nut on the end.
  • If you have to 'cut', grind the nuts off the end; then try unwinding from the other end again. Removal of the outer 'lock-nut', plus the heat of grinding SHOULD free them.
  • If they are REALLY stubborn, then you may try the 'hammer drill' trick. Take a large 'standard' drill bit and use it to just 'dish' the nut end of the bolt. Then get a old large and blunted (or cheap 'black-spur'!) masonry bit. Grease the end, and put the drill onto hammer action. The hammer action should shake the bolt a bit loose, and in some cases the spinning drill will actually try twisting it in the right direction.
Step 4 - Remove Chassis Bush

  • If you are removing the chassis bushes - these are a traditional night mare.
  • The standard part is a metalised rubber bush. Basically there is an inner metal tube, that the spring or shackle pin goes through, and an outer metal tube that fits into the chassis, and between the two a block of rubber. And the inner sleeve is wider than the outer.
  • What tends to happen is that the outer sleeve corrodes to the chassis and wont press out, and pressing on the inner sleeve just twists the rubber!
  • Some recommend burning out the rubber, others drilling, but either way, the idea is to remove the rubber from the sleeve and take with it the inner tube.
  • Then left with the outer sleeve corroded to the chassis, to use a hack saw blade threaded through, to cut into the sleeve itself in two three or four places so that you can then pry out the sections with a hammer and chisel.
And that brings us to the end of the disassembly sequence for one corner, so go put the kettle on!
Step 5 - Re-Assembly

  • Reassembly is reverse of Disassembly! Yeah, Right! In theory it is, but you have to be a bit more careful. Start by making a cuppa, then offer the new spring up, while you enjoy the beverage, look think and plan the next stage.
  • First of all, its going to be a lot easier to line the axle up, if its in roughly the right place to begin with, so look at those blocks/stands and jacks, and see if you can lift it up to near the bump stops to give yourself some room beneath it to line the spring up.
  • You could try attaching it to the spring first, THEN attaching the spring to the chassis, as it can make life easier getting the 'pips' lined up and the axle snug on the spring, but conversely, can make wiggling the spring eye into the chassis hanger more awkward, so I'd do spring first.
  • Likewise do you do chassis end or shackle end; again, a bit more 'play' at the shackle end, so I'd do chassis hanger first, then shackle, then axle, BUT, you can do the chassis hanger, then attach the axle to the spring then lift the shackle end up.
  • Basically, its whatever you think is going to be easiest.
  • One bit of common advice though is not to leave the damper to last, following strict reverse of disassembly, but to attach it to the spring plate first, as its a bit of a pain to get the new bushes squashed on. Again it's preferences, but that's where I'm going to start, after looking at the chassis bush.
  • So, lets have a quick tidy up, and get on with it!
Step 6 - Fitting Chassis Bush

  • Only needed if it's been removed, but.
  • First of all, prepare the hole in the chassis. Clean it up with a wire brush and some coarse emery paper to make sure that there's no debris in there that will 'jam' the new bush as you press it in, and a light smear of coppa-grease may help too.
  • Bush now needs to be pressed in. Tempting to line it up, push it as far as you can then hammer it round the edge of the outer sleeve, but DON'T. You risk damaging the sleeve and bush.
  • Next DONT put a big long bolt or piece of uni-thread through the inner sleeve and a big plate across the back and try winding it in with a pair of nuts, you'll stress the rubber as the inner sleeve is pulled out of skew.
  • Best advice I was offered was that scaffold pole is supposed to be the right size to go over the inner sleeve and press on the outer, so cut two short lengths of it, then bridge the hole in either end with some thick plate with a 10mm ish hole in.
  • Put a nut on end of m10 unithread, and put a plate on the rod, then 1" length of scaffold pole, then chassis-bush (like making a Kabab!)
  • Thread that through the chassis, then put second 12 length of scaffold pole on, second plate, and lastly the nut.
  • line the chassis bush up in the hole, then finger tighten the 'kabab' up so that the scaffold piece is resting on the outer sleeve of the bush, one end, and is over the hole the other.
  • Then tighten, slowly, winding the bush into the hole, until the outer sleeve is butted against the scaffold piece the other side
Step 7 - Fit Damper bottom end

  • On LWB Landies, the REAR dampers don't have an 'eye' they have a threaded pin on the end of the damper that fits through a hole in the chassis plate, with a rubber bush on either end, and a nut pulling them all together. These tend to be pretty easy to fit, so can be left until last, but;
  • On SWB Landies, the damper has an 'eye' at each end with double rubber bushes in. Top end is bolted through the chassis, while the bottom end is on a pin on the spring-plate, held in place with a large washer and split-pin.
  • With new bushes, it can be a right royal pain to squash this lot together, as you have to try and squeeze the bushes, get the washer over the top of the pin, then get a split pin through.
  • Many people think they have been given the wrong size bushes, or try cutting them down1 DONT. they are just a bit 'tight'.
  • And its a lot easier if you can do it in a work vice off the car to start with.
  • One good tip I came across was to angle-grind a slot in to a bit of old pipe, then use that to push against the washer and bush with a vice or big G-clamp, then pit the split pin in via the slot in the pipe.
  • I suppose this could be done with the plate on the car, but again, that's down to you. Most concur that fitting bottom damper first is easier, though, but you have to swing it out of the way whilst you do everything else.
Step 8 - Hanging Spring

  • Basically time to follow the 'plan' you made at Step 6; but my preferred way is to hang at the chassis end first, then the shackle end, then worry about the axle.
  • Getting the chassis end into the hanger can be a bit tight, so worth giving the area a bit of prep with the wire brush to start with, 'dry' fitting the bolts to make sure threads are clear, and you have the right length bolt for each hole, then giving them a smear of coppa-slip.
  • Getting the spring 'in' at the chassis hanger, can be a bit tricky and it's good if you can have an assistant take the weight of the spring for you, while you 'wiggle' it into line
  • and a narrow taper drift is good too. Use it instead of the bush-eye pin, from the 'back' end, ie where the pin will come out.
  • Wiggle the spring eye into place, then when you have the hole roughly in place, push the taper drift in instead of the bolt, and the taper, with a bit of luck should get the bush to 'centre' on the hole, so you can push the pin in from the other side.
  • BUT; don't do the bolts up!
  • Once you have the spring 'hanging' on the pins and shackle, leave all the bolts 'loose', because they 'clamp' the moralistic bushes, which do the twisting, NOT the pins in the sleeves.
  • The bolts don't get done up until the suspension is 'settled' and at 'normal' ride height, later.
  • At the shackle end, again, you have the choice of fitting shackles to the spring first, or to the chassis. I found that attaching them to the chassis and leaving them to 'hand' while if offered up the tail of the spring easiest.
  • Again, leave it all 'loose'.
Step 9 - Lining Up Axle

  • Time to lower the axle back onto the spring. First of all, identify which U-bolts you are going to use. Fronts and rears are different lengths, and the front off side had one U-bolt with a more square profile to clear the diff casing.
  • The Next thing to look out for here is the location 'pip' on the spring, and the location hole it needs to go into on the axle's spring mount.
  • The axle has a square box casting on the underside of the axle that the spring plate mates to. It is actually hollow, rather like an upturned roasting tray, and the location pin goes into a location hole in a small raised boss in the middle.
  • If you are close, you wont mate the plate, but if you are working blind and are well off you might not notice as the pin will go into the free space around the boss in the casting recess.
  • Make sure you get the location pin on the spring located in the hole on the axle. So get the jack under it so that you can lower the axle into place slowly. (See footnote)
  • Doing one corner at a time, if you have left the opposite side fixed to the spring, or have already fixed that end to the spring, you may lack a little 'wiggle' play. It may help to loose off the opposite side on the U-bolts a little. But a little body English can work just as well.
  • Once lined up, you can refit the spring plate (with damper already attached, if you have elected to fit it first as step 8), making sure that you use the right U-bolts.
  • Its useful not to clamp them up too tight to start with, just enough to make sure that spring doesn't stray from axle location pip. You will do them up more tightly when you have got everything settled, and then again after a few road miles.
Step 10 - Repeat until all 4 corners done!

  • With the spring 'hung' and the axle located on it, it SHOULD be looking pretty much like it aught to. All that's left is to attach damper top mount, and essentially that's the corner done.
  • So go round to the other end of the axle, and do the same on that side!
  • Then the axle can be lowed to the ground, and the next one tackled. But first...
  • Take the time to take a breather between stages and corners, and keep your work area tidy.
  • Check over each 'bit' as you go along to make sure you haven't forgotten anything, and you should be pretty much there.
  • all that's left is to 'settle' the suspension in, remember I told you to leave all those bolts loose...
  • BEFORE you lower the axle to the ground DOUBLE CHECK that the bolts are not so loose that they are going to 'pop' as soon as you put any load on them.
  • Pay particular attention to the U-Bolts as these can be 'wedged' off true and will snap loose when you put weight on them; watch carefully as you lower the axle, and do it SLOWLY.
Settling In

  • OK, with all four corners 'done' and the wheels back on teh ground, the suspension needs to be 'settled' before the bolts are all finally tightened.
  • Remember those moralistic bushes; once you tighten the bolts, you 'clamp' them in place and they act as springs, so IF you haven't got the suspension settled at the right 'normal' position, it will often sit crooked or ride 'funny', as a lot of people describe it when they ask 'why' on the forums!
  • First thing to do, is to check the U-Bolts, and tighten them up, under load.
  • Next, you need to 'bounce' the suspension a bit, so jump in the tail-gate and bumper a bit and make the suspension move and get rid of any 'sticktion' in there.
  • Now, the car needs to be on flat level ground, AND you need to make sure that it's not canted over by anything 'unusual' or lack of anything 'usual', before tightening. So have a good check over and tidy up, and remove anything that shouldn't be in the car, like your tool-box! Make sure the spare wheel is where it normally lives, and stuff like that.
  • Then give it another 'bounce'....
  • And finally go and tighten up all the bolts to final torque.
  • Some recommend giving the car a good thrashing over the rough to bed it all in and it's not a bad idea.... but give it some work to do, THEN come back and check it all over again.
  • If it does 'tilt' markedly, or ride canted or 'funny' slacken the bolts and repeat.
  • Pay particular attention to the U-Bolts for the first 500miles or so, they WILL need re-torquing.
and that's about it! Its not THAT horrible or onerous, but having parts, tools and or mates to hand can make the difference between a rewarding weekend, and "I just want to get rid of the bloody thing" type experience. Its all in the planning really.
Foot-Note

A few comments on the Forum's suggest some common gripes, complaints or concerns, one of which is the 'tilt' or riding funny, mentioned in step 12 'settling in'. BUT; there have been a few cases of people getting the springs in the wrong place.
Most springs are sold as pairs; fronts and rears not being the same; but in some cases the springs are also 'handed' and need to be fitted to the correct side of the car. They are usually marked LH (Left Hand side) or RH (Right hand Side). Some springs are also directional and will be marked with an arrow pointing at the end that has to be the 'nose' and point forwards.
A lot of 'problems' are often solved by checking that the springs are on the right side and that they are all 'settled', but severe listing or weird riding can point to the wrong springs having been supplied or fitted.
The only other querulous comment I have is that when I did Wheezil, the location pips on the spring were too big to go in the boss on the axle. I thought this odd, and a 'one-off', but apparently a number of people have experienced the same; I simply filed the pip a bit smaller, carefully with a hand file!
 
Parabolics do make a difference to the ride.... but then so do good standard springs.
I went Para's and I thought the way the truck behaved was a LOT better than others on good stock springs, but I think the trick is that you have to have decent gas dampers to make them work.

.... and how much did that little lot cost ?
 
.... and how much did that little lot cost ?

I seem to recall it was 'around' £300.... but tainted by 'matromonial' accountancy... I probably 'forgot' all the little extras like the new pins and shackle plates and the two sets of axle stands I aquired to do the job!

At the time, British springs 'standard' leafs were about £30 each, or £120 a set, girling oil-stirrer shocks about £15/20; I bought Paddocks 'Black' paras, and I think they were £180, and Monroe Explorer Dampers, which were about £25/30.

In all, it was about £100 more for a full parabolic set up than plain leaf, which for the improvement was pretty good value.

But I needed to renew the whole lot in one go, so it was a case of in for a penny, in for a pound.

Had been suggested to do it in stages, rear springs first on paras, then fronts, then gas shocks at the back, then fronts... can ease the financial strain a bit.

Some have stuck on paras with oil stirrer dampers and reckoned them 'good enough'... but from the way paras actually work gas dampers really bring out the best in them.

You can play around with plain leafs to your hearts content, greasing them, wrapping them in chammy leather or plastic bags, adding or removing leafs, or any of the other alledged 'tricks'....

But the bottom line is a plain leaf has a naturally reducing rate..... yes they will happily flex enough to let the axle hit the stops, but that doesn't necesserily mean that they are offering 'good' complience.

A full extension, they have a HUGE initail stiffness that doesn't like to bend for small or medium bumps, compounded by the problem of 'stiction' between the leaves, acting as a crude friction damper, that likewise offers huge initial resistance, rapidly reducing to very little.

Paras dont have the stiction problem, becouse the leaves dont bear on each other, a reason why a good gas damper with a better 'response' curve is very helpful.

But then the parabolic taper, means that they also dont have such drastic rate drop off as they compress.

That's the 'bit' that made people say they 'behaved' like a liniar rate coil..... they dont, but as thegeometry of thespring changes as they compress, the reducing rate effect is lessened....

Which means that they are much more complient for small and medium irregularities, while still being complient enough to allow the articulation of a traditional plain leaf.

Debated the pro's and cons of paras for a deacade now, with a lot of people, including renouned experts seeking my opinion.

I dont rate them as being the only spring worth fitting; but I do reckon they are worth the extra, if you have it, and if the advantages they offer could to be useful to you.

They do give you about a 1-1 1/2" lift, they do offer about an extra 2" of travel; they do offer a much less 'harsh' ride, on or off-road, and depending on the springs / dampers you choose, they give greater performance on or off road, and depending on the compromise, sometimes a bit of both.

Plain leafs, used to have the virtue of bing a LOT cheaper, lasting longer, and being 'field fixable'... you could weld a broken leaf back together in a charcoal forge, or 'splint' one with wood to get you somewhere you could get a fix...

But some-one told me quite brutally to 'get into the 21st century' we have satalite 'phones and DHL world-wide express now! and your more likely to find a bloke with a portable MIG Welder and a Satalite TV in a third world village than you are a charcoal forge..........

While in the 'West' price and availability fo parts makes that a pretty redundant virtue, leaving simply the cost and durability in thier favour....

Six or seven years ago, difference between 'good' plain leaves and budget paras was £60.... I dont know what it is these days...... But with the 'budget' plain leaf essentially Brit-Parted into uslessness...... I doubt the gap's much wider.

End of the day you pays your money, you takes your choice, and make the compromises that suit you.
 
Hi

My God, that's quite a list of things to do. As one other contributor commented to you "how much did that lot cost", I have to say that it was cost for four parabolics that drew me back hear to ask you guys.

The advice has been invaluable.

Thanks to all so far their input. I'm still undecided I have to say, but I'm kind of looking for parabolics I feel at the moment, but who knows?

The next reply I get on here might change my mind again. :eek:

One thing's for sure, you've all helped me grow the balls to try it myself.

Keep the advice coming. :blabla:

Cheers
 
I can only say that usually when you want to replace the old springs, usually there shot and done for (sometimes) so anything new, will be better, most leaves can be bought back to life with a strip down and clean, and you can have many years of usage from them, especially the old type ones, as can be seen from the photos that have been put up, um not knocking any one that wants to put parrers on, that there choice and im no rivet counter, but i just wouldn't spend that ££ on what to me is not a change for the better
 
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I have para's on my SWB and they are ok but certainly not worth the money. I like them because i am lazy and you don't need to oil them because of the gap in the leafs. The road holding is ok and off road are really good. But before i re chassised my motor i had springs off a series lightweight on the front which are either 5 or 7 leafs (7 leaf are better because they take more weight), they were by far the best value for money. on the back i had normal petrol 11 leaf springs and they were all oiled up and worked a treat.
 
Hmmmm...now I'm wondering if I'm missing a trick here. Perhaps I should service the ones that are there. :confused:

The car is a 1972 SWB petrol. May be these things wear out? What do you think?

What do I do about the squared metal bracket holding all the springs together, it seems to be opening up.

I'll take a couple of pictures and get them on here, and you'll have a better idea, if I do have a problem or, if it's my paranoia about Landy's always needing sumfink!

Cheers
 
OK, spring 'oiling'... those that have advocated the practice aint going to like this, BUT:-
'plain' leafs have the strips of spring steel rubbing on one another. That rubbing provides a very crude form of damping through friction, but subject to a phenomina known as 'stiction'.
This is like trying to shove a washing machine accross your kitchen floor; give it a shove and it doesn't want to move, there is a very high friction force between the washing machione and the lino on the floor. But as SOON as the washing machine starts moving, it slides pretty easily, the friction force reducing as soon as you have over come the 'stiction'...
Make sense?
Right; the frictioon between the leaves in your plain leaf spring do exactly the same thing, they dont want to budge until they get a big bump force to make them shift, then they compress like crazy.......
Now, conveniently, oil stirrer dampers have a very poor response curve. They are a piston in a pot of oil, and when they start moving, instead of the piston moving through the oil giving a progressive damping action.... the piston just shoves the oil above the piston up the cylinder. As it does so, it compresses the air-gap and that eventually builds up enough pressure to shove the oil past the piston, and you get some damping force from the darn thing.
So, oil-damper on plain leaf, the LACK of response from the damper goes some way to compensating for the fact that you have a huge 'stiction' force to overcome before you get any movement...... but its a bit hit and miss, and how much travel you need before the stiction is over come and before the damper starts working is dependent on a huge range of things, and can vary while you are on the move......
You say your leaf clamps are starting to come apart.... this suggests that you have a lot of rust building up between the leaves. This means that if they aren't siezed almost solid, there will be a lot more stiction, becouse of the higher clamping force between the leafs from having all that 'crud' between them.
As suggestion, stripping rusted plain leafs and wire-brushing them WILL make a big difference..... first of all the leafs will be 'free' to rub against one another like they should have to begin with.
Next, they will also be thinner.... that rust had to come fom somewhere.... and it used to be metal in the spring!
Thinner leafs means that they wont be as 'stiff' as if they were new, which means they are more 'giving'..... and they also wont be clamped together so hard, so there will be less friction damping and stiction.
But also, becouse you dont tend to hammer the axles against the bump stops on every bump, the spring is likely to have developed a 'wear pattern' over the range its most often compressed through.
This means that it will probably be softer in that region as the leafs in that wear zone are thinner, but also there is likely to be a ridge or ramp at the end of that zone, where less rubbed, to 'snag' the leaves and drastically change the spring rate over a very small range of travel, which may be a LITTLE aleviated by cleaning them up and making the leaves a bit smoother.
So far so good; The old, but cleaned springs will feel a lot better, becouse they first actually working, and second, softer than standard.
But, they will be weaker, and if the stress of being seperated by lamena rust in the stack hasn't distorted them or fatigued them, they still wont have much life in them (but possibly enough..... they have probably lasted best part of forty years, cleaned up you may get another five out of them) If they HAVE been stressed or fatgued in the stack, then when you strip them you may find that a leaf or two are allready cracked if not actually broken. If not, there is little garantee, that asked to work for a living again, they wont break fairly soon.
Either way, chances are that once fettled, the body wont settle level on the cleaned springs, or if it does, it will probably ride a little lower than it should.
But, if funds are tight, all it costs is time and effort.
As for oiling....... well that does little except lubricate the leafs against rubbing... it wont eliminate stiction, but it will reduce it..... a little.
The price however is that whatever you lube the leafs with, will trap road crud, and that will act as a good 'lapping paste' so that as the, now thinner leaves' rub, they will also grind each other even thinner.....
Wrapping the leaves in chamois leather soaked in oil used to be a common suggestion and was considered a 'high-class' tip having been done by the Bentley boys to thier Le-Mans cars back in the 1920's.
The leather holds the oil in around the leaf, and offers some protection against grit getting in to act as a grinding past. The leather, mean-while, ALSO acts as a very crude, but quite effective 'hydraulic' damper, if wrapped tight enough, not effected by the 'lag' of a telescopic strut.
It worked, notionally well by 1920's standards, but doesn't last very well, the leather breaks down quite quickly, and needs renewing to keep it effective.
Modern variations on the principle involve copper slip or similar, and plastic bags........ old rags and variouse other notions or potions!
Again, bottom line is, if you dont have the dosh, it can be useful, and only costs you your time and effort.
But fundementally, you are not tackling the real issue, which is that you have clapped out old springs!
So, to fix it 'properly' you have a choice, buy new plain leafs, or upgrade to parabolics.
New leafs, SHOULD work pretty smoothly, they wont have wear ridges in them, the shape should be right, the rate should be right, and when fitted up, the body should ride level and even at the correct ride hight.
Then in operation, after they have 'bedded in' a bit, they should give a reasonably progressive and complient ride through the full range of travel.
Fit them up with new bushes, and new oil stirrer dampers, and the ride should be pretty much as was expected by the factory when the car was built, and SHOULD last another twenty years without major degredation.
IF the replacement springs are of equal quality to the originals..... but Brit-Part,(and similar 'cheap' spings) and rumour has it they are so poorly tempered, that they can start to 'say' on your drive, in as little as a couple of months!
So, parabolics; they dont suffer from stiction, and have a greater amount of travel and a more controlled 'rate', which means that they actually offer complience more proportinally to the bump force... ie they actually work on smaller and middle sized bumps, not needing such a huge force to get them moving, and so give a much less 'harsh' ride. But as said, they are best matched to a gas damper that doesn't suffer the 'lag' problem of an oil-stirrer to get the most benefit from them.
The parabolic concept unfortunately started to gain acceptance at about the time leaf-springs were generally being deemed 'old fasioned' and fitted purely for ecconomic reasons, where the added cost of a parabolic just wasn't wanted, except in a few instances, where it was cheaper to use a para than developing a new tortion bar or coil spring suspension system.
As was the case with the Santana Series III+'1/2' Land-Rover, for which Paul Haystee did all the resaerch work in the late 1970's, to develop the springs the Spaniards went on to use after Solihul dismissed it by the expedience of using the Range rover coils, and Chris Perfect was to flog for many years in this country, for a rather uncompetative price.
Meanwhile in the USA, where leaf-springs were far less unfasionable, parabolics were a common upgrade, either by the OE manufacturers or as an after-market accessory, and Rocky-Mountain created thier range of springs from what was on offer that side of the pond.
Now both of those 'makes' are 'top-end' products and are quite exhorbitantly priced. Hoever, for your money you get a spring made to a very exacting standard that is not only of a superior design, but also a superior quality to the OE fit plain leafs, and likely to last as long or longer than such springs, even under hard use.......
The 'British Springs' parabolic is ALMOST as good for manufactuiring quality, and from conversations I've had with Paul Haystee, the only 'copy' of 'his' spring (as he reffers to them!) that is actually a 'genuine' parabolic, rather than what he calls a "tapered and seperated 'plain' leaf stack" Which is to depart into an area of engineering symantics over the defanition of a 'parabolic' spring, which is pretty irrelevant to most of you.
Practically, Santana / Rocky / British Paras, are 'premium' springs, that will do the job and will last a long time. There are differences and depending on your selection, opinion suggests that CP/Santana springs offer more complience for off-roading, particularly on standard matalastic bushes, rather than poly-blocks, but at the expense of some on road manners; they give a little more 'roll' and 'pitch'. British are the other way it seems, and a little better on the road with more pitch and roll resistance, but slightly less complient off-road; Rockies, I believe are some-where between, and would seem a reasonable compromise..... though a LOT depends on the actual spring you select for your vehicle, as they do offer different rates in all brands....... and ULTIMATELY the dampers you choose to match them with will also influence the way the car behaves.
In the realms of the 'budget' parabolics, cost cutting can come in many ways, but as Paul pointed out, the very cheapest paras dont actually have a propper parabolic taper, they have a liniar taper...... but practically that doesn't make much odds to many customers.... they have pretty much the same properties as a genuine parabolic taper leaf, work in the same way, giving a more complient ride over a wider range of travel.
Only noticeable difference is that they tend to lack the sphisticated tempering treatments of the 'top' brands and consequently dont last as long...... perhaps ten to fifteen years instead of twenty to thirty........ but at half the price? Doesn't mean they are bad value.
As said, you pays your money and takes your choice; what is 'best' really depends on what you are hoping for.
Parabolics DO have a lot to offer, but it depends on the compromise; get the wrong paras and match them with the wrong dampers and you could have something that costs you a lot of money and doesn't work very well; conversely, get it 'right' with decent plain leafs and dampers, you may be very happy with them....
I spent around £300 on my Parabolic set up, I was very pleased with it, and for the service I got out of it, and the value selling it on, I reckon I got my money's worth.... it all depends on what is important to you.
The things to beware of are false ecconomies; IF you are stripping your springs, then is it REALLY worth all that time and effort JUST for a couple more years service with compromised performance? IF you go 'top end' and go for a top-brand para and matching damper, are you REALLY going to get the benefit of it, either through the better 'action' and/or life of the set up? In the middle, are you going to be able to get something 'adequete' by way of life and performance and cost, and NOT be dissapointed?
It ALL depends on what your expectations are, and your means.
 
Oiling plain leaf springs is the only way to get them to compress and drop when off roading. It's maybe not a good practice but it works for that. I did not find oiling was a problem for the handling on the road either, oiling also helps with rust between the leafs and stops it building up and bulging the leafs apart. Land Rover suspension is knackered over 20000 miles anyway especially if you are off road alot.

Just a short reply from me i'm affraid:)
 
I honestly don't know what I'd do with out you all on this forum. The advice is great...knowledge is power and all that stuff. :p

I think I start with some lubrication (I'm talking about the car...nothing else! :D), see if that helps just now whilst I ponder the parabolic problem, and save some dosh for "a" repair of some sort.

If you any of you know who's standard springs and who's parabolic springs are good, pop a link onto their sites. I'm either crap with Google, or I'm missing something obvious.:confused: I can't find the sites for the preferred companies.

As usual with Series Landy's something else has come up, I've wandering steering again, so I think I should attend to that first.

Keep it all coming, please, I read and digest every word and it's appreciated.

Cheers:cool:
 
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