Recurring indicator relay death

Hi all,
A couple of months ago, the indicator relay died on me, while I was 500 miles from home. Here's the thread at the time, including my amusing "fix" to get us home at the time... https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/indicators-dead.322603

After that, I decided to always carry a spare relay. Well this weekend, the new relay failed again. In total, I reckon the new relay has been in for about 2 hours of driving time if I add up all the short trips only that I've done since it failed last time.

Of course I had my spare this time, popped it in, and on I went. And I've just ordered another spare. But this seems crazy to have failed already, and to me, suggests there's an underlying wiring problem somewhere killing them.

I was simply driving along a dual carriage way at the time, I used the indicators to change lanes, all fine, tried to use them again 30 or so seconds later... Relay dead.

Now, 2 things of significance...

1) I have LED indicators. I installed the Wipac LED kit ages ago, including side lights, indicators and break lights. This means it has to use a special LED relay rather than the OEM one... Could it just be that Wipac are supplying crap relays that die easily?

2) I installed a buzzer behind the dash lights that beeps when the indicator warning light illuminates, as I can't hear a damn thing over the engine noise and constantly drive about with my indicators going. Could this be the culprit? I've taken it off but I will only find out that it's NOT this if the relay fails again at some point. And I could really do with it back again.

Or is it something else?
Any ideas?

With standard indicators the most common cause for repeated failure of the flasher relays is from a poor earth however as you have LED which draw virtually no current I doubt this will be the problem.

It could be cheap parts, do they come with a warranty? Have you contacted wipac?

HeywoodFloyd said:

I installed a buzzer behind the dash lights that beeps when the indicator warning light illuminates, as I can't hear a damn thing over the engine noise and constantly drive about with my indicators going. Could this be the culprit? I've taken it off but I will only find out that it's NOT this if the relay fails again at some point. And I could really do with it back again.

Click to expand...

This may be casing the problem in a similar way to the poor earth on a standard setup. You have added an extra load to the circuit, and are using an LED specific relay which is designed for very low circuit load.

HeywoodFloyd said:

1) I have LED indicators. I installed the Wipac LED kit ages ago, including side lights, indicators and break lights. This means it has to use a special LED relay rather than the OEM one... Could it just be that Wipac are supplying crap relays that die easily?

Click to expand...

The PO of my 90 added LED indicators, tail, side and stop lamps and there were issues with the telltale light, trailer lights etc. and indicator flash rate but no blown relays. I replaced the Wipac relay with a RDX 4 Pin Flasher Relay from Boltonbits https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RDX-4-Pi...RE-Resistors-LandRover-Defender-/230952858198 and had no problems since. Works without resistors and doesn't matter if one uses a mix of standard and LED bulbs.

But I think that a repeatedly blowing relay suggests a wiring/earthing fault somewhere....although I have read about issues with the Wipac relays.

May be just a co-incidence. If the third one blows as well - time to investigate.

Ok, so this has been useful thanks everyone.

I reckon then, it could well be a combo of 3 things: Poor capabilities from the Wipac Relay (apparently only supports 40 watts total), the buzzer being involved, and having a mixture of indicator types, as the wing-indicators are still normal bulbs.

To be clear, I've not replaced my indicator bulbs with LED bulbs, the lights have all been replaced with self-contained LED light units.

Anyway, I've taken the plunge and ordered the bolt on bits version of the relay, if their wording is to be believed, this will solve my problem as it can take 140 watts and is designed to handle a mixture not just pure LED. We shall see, it's a lot of money for a relay so I hope they're telling the truth!

HeywoodFloyd said:

, and having a mixture of indicator types, as the wing-indicators are still normal bulbs.
To be clear, I've not replaced my indicator bulbs with LED bulbs, the lights have all been replaced with self-contained LED light units.

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My wing-side indicators are ordinary bulbs too, the side/tail/stop lights are LED. The RDX relay handles them all and one can adjust the flash rate by turning the little knob on the relay; I turned it until the trailer tell tale dash light went out and the indicators flashed at the correct rate. Not cheap but worth it. Apparently it also gets the trailer tell-tale to flash with the indicators if fitted - the Wipac can't do that either apparently which under new regs = MoT fail:

Trailer electrical sockets, where fitted, will need to be secure and not damaged to the extent that the plug could not be securely connected. An additional check of the connectivity of the wiring will apply to 13-pin trailer sockets.
This connectivity check will require an approved device to be plugged into the socket while the position lamps, stop lamps, rear fog lamp and direction indicators are operated. The device will show whether or not each system is wired as per the requirements and clearly any non-compliance will result a failure.

http://www.partinfo.co.uk/files/MOT Changes - Lighting.pdf

capo said:

Trailer electrical sockets, where fitted, will need to be secure and not damaged to the extent that the plug could not be securely connected. An additional check of the connectivity of the wiring will apply to 13-pin trailer sockets.
This connectivity check will require an approved device to be plugged into the socket while the position lamps, stop lamps, rear fog lamp and direction indicators are operated. The device will show whether or not each system is wired as per the requirements and clearly any non-compliance will result a failure.

Click to expand...

The Mot regulations above only apply to the 13pin trailer sockets and have no relevance to the old 7 pin trailer sockets. I do not know anyone who has a 13pin socket fitted to their modern vehicle let alone an old land rover and have never come across one on any trailer I have towed weather hired or owned.

I think even with the Wipac LED relays though, if you twiddle the knob to the right place, you'll get the trailer light only flash once when you turn the indicators on (I understand this is completely avoided with the RDX one which is better) and if you've got a trailer attached, the trailer light will work as expected. I'm pretty sure it did last time I had the trailer on anyway.

dag019 said:

The Mot regulations above only apply to the 13pin trailer sockets and have no relevance to the old 7 pin trailer sockets. I do not know anyone who has a 13pin socket fitted to their modern vehicle let alone an old land rover and have never come across one on any trailer I have towed weather hired or owned.

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Fair enough, but I thought I'd pass it on. I was told that all trailer plugs are tested not just 13 pin ones but the above does state '13-pin'.

dag019 said:

I do not know anyone who has a 13pin socket fitted to their modern vehicle let alone an old land rover and have never come across one on any trailer I have towed weather hired or owned.

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You do now as I have 13 on both my cars (Audi and fender) because my mobile chicane has 13 pin plug as standard. I can tow with either vehicle. 13 pin is a lot more reliable / better construction than 7 pin plus you can get adaptors to allow use of 7 pin plug with 13 socket if you have antiquated 7 pin trailer!

Kwakerman said:

You do now as I have 13 on both my cars (Audi and fender) because my mobile chicane has 13 pin plug as standard. I can tow with either vehicle. 13 pin is a lot more reliable / better construction than 7 pin plus you can get adaptors to allow use of 7 pin plug with 13 socket if you have antiquated 7 pin trailer!

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The newest vehicle I own is an '89 110 made by Solihul's finest do you really think "more reliable / better construction" are important to me

Plus I don't need anything else for any of them to fail mot's on, that is what UJ's and wheel bearing play is for

capo said:

Fair enough, but I thought I'd pass it on. I was told that all trailer plugs are tested not just 13 pin ones but the above does state '13-pin'.

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This what's checked electrically on towbars, the actual operation test is 13 pin sockets only. (IIRC caravans made after 2008 will be fitted with 13 pin but as has already been said you can use an adapter if your vehicle has 12n/12s sockets):
https://www.mot-testing.service.gov.uk/documents/manuals/m4s01000901.htm

After some shallow wading this weekend, my super reliable new relay failed on me. I couldn't believe it, I've not had a problem for months!

I opened up the fuse cover and pulled out the relay to inspect it, and discovered it was soaking wet! Could this have been the problem all along, water getting in there somewhere and shorting out the relay? If so, where the hell is the water coming from???

HeywoodFloyd said:

where the hell is the water coming from???

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Hey it's a Landy.... they've got to leak from somewhere
Are all your bulkhead hole grommets in place and secure? Where the loom runs through? If the seal around the tunnel is bad it could seep through there, or it could be a poor seal leaking down inside a pillar and running free. Hard to say; the old sit inside while someone hoses it down might give a clue.
This might help...

My WIPAC relay failed due to water ingress after 6 hours of driving in the rain - it was upside down and had filled up with water. It had lasted 2 years - using WIPAC LED units. As mentioned above, if you fiddle with the knob on top you can get a correct trailer function. The new one is fitted the right way up!

A more information of looking for how water got in, as yielded no clues.

I'm tempted to reposition the relay for now and solve the mystery leak later.

Water got in past the windscreen seal/vent seal on mine. I'm not surprised, it was torrential rain on and off for hours.