Freelander 1 Mrs has now purchased a FL1

Joe_H said:

Hello Tony, that is a nice job ! - well done mate.
I personally strongly believe that any test of the VCU should be done - where possible - in a situation that involves the VCU actually rotating, not a static test. This far far more informative. Your method is extremely good and probably by far the best test I have ever seen documented.
Now, I don't want to start a flame war re OWUT et al. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and of course, those opinions may and well differ between folks.
So with your extremely valuable input we now have three basic tests (4 if you include include the Bell Engineering video)
This is my take on the 4 tests.

• By far yours is the most accurate and detailed that I can imagine and if you measure shaft rpm and load as it increases you have basically built a crude but highly accurate dynomometer. again I think this is excellent (I love things like this and thinking out of the box). By taking readings and mapping them as the rpm increases up to 75 one should be able to plot a load graph. Negatives obviously are the time and complexity for the vast majority of users. !!
• Second best test (imho of course) is the Bell recommended reverse test. The main reason being that it also puts a rotating load on the VCU - not a Static load that causes a partial single rotation. This is an actual 'turning' VCU test. It may however be difficult for some owners to 'judge' if it 'feels' that there is a tightening or brake binding issue - other users would have no issues in ruling the brake binding out quite simply.. Most users would certainly be able to tell though. A great and reliable test !. - One I would certainly recommend for the vast majority. It is simple to do - at any time - and often will be part of normal driving where the issue could be picked up 'as it happens' - gets my vote all day long
• Third best test is as per the old Bell video with the VCU on the 'bench' tested with a given load and measuring the time -(much like the OWUT)/ This removes all other parts of the transmission that may effect the readings slightly. It is very basic - but without a vehicle to test it on whilst the VCU is actually turnin there is really not much in the way of another option - unless of course - a VCU Dyno was built. I do not for one minute believe that the condemnation of the OWUP by Bell is in any way vindictive or derogatory. The test Bell shows is for a newly reconditioned VCU. what is the difference to a non reconditioned VCU one may ask ? - well again (imho) the recon VCU has known clean plates, known quantity of fluid and known type of fluid. It is simply the best test they can do on a recon VCU without a dyno. Given that they are starting from a known state of the unit in terms of fluid / plates / air gap etc then this is reasonable. An 'old' vcu can show similar performance however it is not representative of actual turning performance. In other words, it is more likely that a VCU that has issue may well perfrom a similar SLOW test but will fail a driven test. Remember Bell are testing newly built units with known good plates and fluid and air-gap. However, this is totally impractical for users as A. they do not have a fully recon unit to start with. (and Bell are probably the most respected VCU recon experts). B they would have to take the VCU off the vehicle - but - even that would be pointless as it only gives a limited about of info with a totally unknown quantity regarding the internals. I am saying that (again imho!) that what happens at slow partial turn tests with a vcu with an unknown internal state is not representative of a VCU in a fully recon state or definitely in a driven state.
• Last indicator of choice (FOR ME !) - but very popular amongst others - is the OWUT. I hold little faith in this personally. I think that a VCU showing an apparently normal 'time' for the test could indeed be faulty when actually rotating. I also feel that high (long time) test may actually be of use to indicate a potential fault. However -all thing being equal the test is only showing the static (non turning - driven) state of the VCU.
• The BEST test in my opinion is Tony's DIY Dyno - it is simply brilliant and has KNOWN figures to refer to !
• The MOST USEFUL test imho is quite simply the reversing tightness test - absolutely simple to do at any time and definitely indicative of a real issue.
• The LEAST USEFUL of the list (AGAIN ! IMHO) is the OWUT. Quite simply becuase it tells you little and is superceded by the far more reliable 'reverse tightness' test'
• Bell have absolutely no 'axe to grind'

Obviously I know this is contrary to the opinions of folk I really do respect - that is why I must stress again that the above informed / experienced (usually by both opinions are my own. Nothing more. I fully respect other peoples opinions and welcome discussions.
Joe

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You seem to have ignored the most basic criteria. That is that it should be a quick and easy test for the home owner to carry out!
I like Tony's test, but that still means dismantling the drive train. I prefer the option of using the rear wheel, as that involves no dismantling of the car.
Bells test is, most likely the best, but how many owners wish to dismantle their car on a regular basis ( the prime need for this test us that it easy to do).

Hmmmmm. techy pondering lol - I am sure something could 'possibly' be done in situ with hall effect sensors on the input and output shafts of the vcu - more or less the same setup as an abs sensor. ! - hmmmm again, yes, this may be quite informative. It would give you a reading of the differences in shaft speeds at any time - add in engine speed - (obviously shaft speed (and road speed / or indeed - wheel speed for the driven wheels having most torque) can be determined from the rotational difference in shaft speed ! - the computation and measurements of such would be absolutely simple with even an Arduino and lcd. That would be very easy to do.....
Hmmm again - I recommend that to the house !... one could tell exactly how the vcu was performing - Torque calculation could even be approximated by engine speed / TPS and front shaft speed.......
Vewwy vewwy interesting
That would be an interesting project...... a simpler way would be to add a small magnet to the input and output Hardy Spicer joints dual points of the VCU that always remain in the same relative position - the hall sensor would detect detect those fixed points;;;;;;;;

The Mad Hat Man said:

You seem to have ignored the most basic criteria. That is that it should be a quick and easy test for the home owner to carry out!
I like Tony's test, but that still means dismantling the drive train. I prefer the option of using the rear wheel, as that involves no dismantling of the car.
Bells test is, most likely the best, but how many owners wish to dismantle their car on a regular basis ( the prime need for this test us that it easy to do).

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Hi TMHM, I do not believe I have at all. - It IS quick and easy - the reverse test (Bell's recommended test. ! ) - which I quote in my 'preferred' list of tests. By far- and without any doubt to me, the simple reverse test is THE most indicative of ANY potential issue.
That IS the most basic criteria - easy to perform - and far more accurate (imho) than any other test.
Bell's bench torque test is not and never was designed for testing an OLD VCU - only a RECON unit with known internal state / fluid and air gap .. nothing at all to do with testing a 'used' VCU on or off the vehicle. There is a huge difference. A rotating test is far far more informative. Nothing really could be simpler that the reverse tightness test.
Joe

Joe_H said:

Hmmmmm. techy pondering lol - I am sure something could 'possibly' be done in situ with hall effect sensors on the input and output shafts of the vcu - more or less the same setup as an abs sensor. ! - hmmmm again, yes, this may be quite informative. It would give you a reading of the differences in shaft speeds at any time - add in engine speed - (obviously shaft speed (and road speed / or indeed - wheel speed for the driven wheels having most torque) can be determined from the rotational difference in shaft speed ! - the computation and measurements of such would be absolutely simple with even an Arduino and lcd. That would be very easy to do.....
Hmmm again - I recommend that to the house !... one could tell exactly how the vcu was performing - Torque calculation could even be approximated by engine speed / TPS and front shaft speed.......
Vewwy vewwy interesting
That would be an interesting project...... a simpler way would be to add a small magnet to the input and output Hardy Spicer joints dual points of the VCU that always remain in the same relative position - the hall sensor would detect detect those fixed points;;;;;;;;

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Further pondering on this reminded me of a conversation with GrumpyGel a while back regarding monitoring ABS wheel sensors via a microprocessor or preferably the output of the OBD port for potential tyre pressure issues - .... that actually raises an interesting theory with regards to vcu testing.... thanks GG
If we actually looked at the wheel sensors for the ABS (yes it would need a micro and a bit of splicing in this case) then we could determine from the various sensors what the VCU was doing. It would be 'entertaining' to say the least regarding differing wheel speeds as slip occurs ! - however - the differences could quite easily be computed by a simple micro. That would also do the job !.
It would be both a tyre size reduction sensor and also a vcu performance sensor - it could even indicate the performance of TC and HDC etc....
That would be extremely valuable info - albeit a bit of 'minor' wire spicing.

Out of interest GG - I finally bit the bullet and ordered a Lynx to be delivered on Wednesday. I am sure I can see the wheel sensor differentials with that (far more useful for the FL1 than the Hawkeye!) - however - to do what I am proposing would mean a dedicated on board micro - not too difficult at all me thinks.... hmm again.
Joe

Let's face it the Freelander 1 drive train was an Heath Robinson abortion from the moment it came off the drawing board. Life for owners would have been a lot better if Land rover had done what they should have and made the VCU a replaceable item at a set mileage with service interval checks.

wammers said:

Let's face it the Freelander 1 drive train was an Heath Robinson abortion from the moment it came off the drawing board. Life for owners would have been a lot better if Land rover had done what they should have and made the VCU a replaceable item at a set mileage with service interval checks.

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Cannot disagree with that Wammers, you are 100% right.
However, we have what we have and if there is a 'relatively' easy way to realistically monitor the actual real time (turning and burning ) performance of the unit on and off road then it may (would !) be useful.
Just because they (LR) failed to class the VCU as a replacement item does not condemn the overall transmission design which I personally thing is outstanding.
We are talking about very old design vehicles (in relative terms) here, and with a bit if care and awareness we can keep them in tip top condition., Anything that helps that - and is cost effective ! - is a good thing. Surely, that is why a lot of us are here ? the hippo (when working as it should) is superb. Yet it takes small things to cause catastrophic damage. The more we can monitor them (or are aware of the weaknesses) - the better. Or, simply by treating the VCU as a replacement item then in a lot of cases we can continue to have trouble free motoring.
There will come a time though where IRD and VCU replacements become more difficult to soruce . BELL already have issues with IRD recon due to lack of suitable replacement items. That will only continue to get worse - I have 'squirrelled ' a minter away for a 'rainy day' - along with other hard to get parts.

Part of the fun of driving and owning them I presume.
Who knows what kind of aftermarket things will be produced in the future to keep the beggars on the road. ?
Joe

What LR should have done, was to make the VCU rebuildable at set intervals. Even selling the fluid at dealers. This would then have removed lots of problems later on, down the road.

Nodge68 said:

What LR should have done, was to make the VCU rebuildable at set intervals. Even selling the fluid at dealers. This would then have removed lots of problems later on, down the road.

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Abso-freeking -lootly Nodge mate. It would have saved a WORLD of issues.
Luckily now - for most of us - we know what to look for and do - and with a bit of attention - we can keep the hippo in tip top condition.
It is a tremendously superb design let down by some 'relatively' small but traumatic issues. IF as you said above - LR had done this - we would not be having this discussion. But 'we' are wiser than LR now as they have dropped the ball and are not interested. This forum probably contains more practical real world knowledge reagarding the Hippo than LR ever did. !
And be gads it will continue to be so - the hippo is already extrmely well supported in the spares department - it will and indeed is - a classic and support will continue.

Joe

Does not seem to be many early FL 1s about, if there are they are peanuts to buy. Can't see someone paying even after market prices for a VCU which equals or exceeds the worth of the car. Unless the props are removed and used as front wheel drive only, can see them dying out in a few years time. Land rover don't give a shit they sold many thousands of what was due to bad design to all intents and purposes a lifed item. Scrap yards will soon be full of them sad to say.

You may well be correct Wammers, its why I looked for this model and of decent quality, 3 door diesel td4 2004-early 2006, I don't mind spending the money on a vehicle to get it correct. Spare parts are easy to get, even major components, gearbox for mine £175 replaced clutch at same time £500, proper service, wheels refurbished and now black powder coated, still cost me less than this one will do.

Put it in to have the wheels referred, a full service, including and particularly transmission, suspect either wheel bearing or CV joint on nearside front, new tyres to be fitted to all 3 rear wheels, to match front pair, owner of garage said these are good tyres, cheap but good.

All of that, including leather repairs for a chewy dog in the rear will/ should come out at under £1000, oh and callipers and rear drums will also be powder coated.

Its gone to have the work done and I will post some more pics on her arrival, I am away working for a few days now.

Still happy with it, Registered in Kent, also a good sign I think.

Pompey said:

You may well be correct Wammers, its why I looked for this model and of decent quality, 3 door diesel td4 2004-early 2006, I don't mind spending the money on a vehicle to get it correct. Spare parts are easy to get, even major components, gearbox for mine £175 replaced clutch at same time £500, proper service, wheels refurbished and now black powder coated, still cost me less than this one will do.

Put it in to have the wheels referred, a full service, including and particularly transmission, suspect either wheel bearing or CV joint on nearside front, new tyres to be fitted to all 3 rear wheels, to match front pair, owner of garage said these are good tyres, cheap but good.

All of that, including leather repairs for a chewy dog in the rear will/ should come out at under £1000, oh and callipers and rear drums will also be powder coated.

Its gone to have the work done and I will post some more pics on her arrival, I am away working for a few days now.

Still happy with it, Registered in Kent, also a good sign I think.

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Maybe goodish from Kent depends where, if it was first registered in Blackpool it would have rotted away by now.

Nodge68 said:

I like the idea of this test. It is very close to the torque test that LR show figures for.
My only concern would be if the VCU was over stiff by some margin. This could well exceed the torque limit of the steel lever used. The failure of which could well cause damage to the under body area, should the lever thrash about.
The test as far as I'm concerned, is a valid one.

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What actually happened before I did the test was that I was sure the VCU would be toast and need a clean out and refill due to the miles done (see I read all the bad stories). So I took it off. Then I did my "quick" test (needs to be number 5 in the list below ;=)), this involves two big screw drivers and the yokes either side of the VCU. I found I could slowly rotate it, so then I put it back in and did the RIOT(TM) test.

And BTW, if I had an auto diesel I would still have tried the test, low idle in a diesel, plus low gear and the torque converter would have given close to the 75 rpm with close throttle control, from my primitive calculations.

Yes I know re: rotting away in Blackpool
first registered in Canterbury, I think it was used to commute to London 60k first 3 years.. but then again my Audi was at 80k by that point, and i traveled north and south so may be more to it.
Saw an 04 RR for sale in Southport today, looks nice seen it a few times but first time with a price tag on it £5999, green, if my Mrs hadn't bought this FL1 I would have been tempted, but not to spend money like I have on hers, if that makes sense!

Tony Reeves said:

What actually happened before I did the test was that I was sure the VCU would be toast and need a clean out and refill due to the miles done (see I read all the bad stories). So I took it off. Then I did my "quick" test (needs to be number 5 in the list below ;=)), this involves two big screw drivers and the yokes either side of the VCU. I found I could slowly rotate it, so then I put it back in and did the RIOT(TM) test.

And BTW, if I had an auto diesel I would still have tried the test, low idle in a diesel, plus low gear and the torque converter would have given close to the 75 rpm with close throttle control, from my primitive calculations.

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Yep, been thinking about that for an Auto, could I just put it in manual and select 1st for the one wheel test ?

Drove it around 90 miles today, VCU comfortable to touch with your hand but not for long, nearside wheel NOT comfortable to touch at all, PSI for rear nearside tyre 15, the rest where about 28, all inflated to 30psi at day start, you will be glad to know.

I do want to have a test of the VCU though, feeling like replacing it as a standard. Its another £200 just for the part, excluding bearings, had a look at the VCU today, whilst holding it, it looks clean, so do the bearings either side, not only that but the rear prop shaft has 'sold written on it'.

So i reckon there has been problems and they haven't been completely solved, oil changes for example, or a ringer! four wheel alignment out, now that would be a ****er!

wammers said:

Maybe goodish from Kent depends where, if it was first registered in Blackpool it would have rotted away by now.

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The Freelander doesn't rot as fast as chassis LR models. My 05 D3 was much more rusty than my current 05 Freelander. I had to replace all the solid brake pipes on the Discovery before it reached its 9th birthday. The pipe above the rear diff actually failed due to rust, which was a scary moment. At least the EPB worked, that time at least.
It's not just Freelanders that have there design faults. Take the D3 for example. The handbrake motor fails every 3 or 4 years at £600+ per time. The brake drums need constant adjustment, just to keep the EPB module working as long as possible. The air suspension (EAS) is plagued with reliability issues and just for good measure, the TDV6 engine can just expire with crank failure at 70 to 90K miles!!.
These few major D3 issues and a plethora of other faults will cost many times the cost of a Freelander VCU, or a Freelander itself. The Freelander is actually a complete bargain compared to a D3 and it's associated costs of ownership.

Nodge68 said:

The Freelander doesn't rot as fast as chassis LR models. My 05 D3 was much more rusty than my current 05 Freelander. I had to replace all the solid brake pipes on the Discovery before it reached its 9th birthday. The pipe above the rear diff actually failed due to rust, which was a scary moment. At least the EPB worked, that time at least.
It's not just Freelanders that have there design faults. Take the D3 for example. The handbrake motor fails every 3 or 4 years at £600+ per time. The brake drums need constant adjustment, just to keep the EPB module working as long as possible. The air suspension (EAS) is plagued with reliability issues and just for good measure, the TDV6 engine can just expire with crank failure.
All these D3 issues will cost many times the cost of a Freelander VCU. The Freelander is actually a complete bargain compared to a D3 and it's associated costs of ownership.

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You have obviously never seen a car first registered in Blackpool, the rot box capital of the north. Yep lots of things have lots of problems but if not looked after or has not been looked after the FL1 more than most. Have had two Disco 1s first one was reasonable needed a bit of work. Second one was a rot box needed a lot of panels. Boot floor Etc. Lad bought one that was worse boot floor was totally knackered. Did lots of work on that to make it anything like salable. The early L322s where dodgy beyond reason. If you can find an early FL1 that has been looked after, it maybe worth saving, but if it has been neglected it's basically scrap.

Pompey said:

Yep, been thinking about that for an Auto, could I just put it in manual and select 1st for the one wheel test ?

Drove it around 90 miles today, VCU comfortable to touch with your hand but not for long, nearside wheel NOT comfortable to touch at all, PSI for rear nearside tyre 15, the rest where about 28, all inflated to 30psi at day start, you will be glad to know.

I do want to have a test of the VCU though, feeling like replacing it as a standard. Its another £200 just for the part, excluding bearings, had a look at the VCU today, whilst holding it, it looks clean, so do the bearings either side, not only that but the rear prop shaft has 'sold written on it'.

So i reckon there has been problems and they haven't been completely solved, oil changes for example, or a ringer! four wheel alignment out, now that would be a ****er!

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Hello Pompey. I would be a little concerned about the "nearside wheel NOT comfortable to touch at all" . I realise that the tyre pressure was down - which would certainly cause the vcu to warm up, however, heat in the wheel itself is almost certainly down to brake binding - check and sort that asap ! - also check the rear wheel bearings at the same time. Low tyre pressure will not cause the wheel to warm up to an uncomfortable to touch temperature.
Regarding the prop, I wouldn't worry at all, it has probably needed new Hardy Spicers at some point and was easier to put a good s/h rear prop on.
Did you not get full history with the car ? (you mention oil changes etc ?)
So, definitely check that wheel / brakes / bearings !
Joe

Joe_H said:

Hey Pompey - What type of Boat ? - a few years back we sold our Seastream 34 after 10 years full time live aboard

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50ft semi trad canal boat. Shared ownership with me!

There are some pics of it in the boat fred!

+1 to what Joe said.

I came back from a journey in the rain and could see steam coming off the wheel and tyre. Turned out to be a sticking guide pin on the calliper. A common issue, but easy to sort. The pins need grease to move smoothly. And are protected by a little rubber boot. If that gets damaged or dislodged, the grease leaks and corrosion sets in, preventing the pin from sliding as it should. Costs about £20 to sort with new pins, boots, and grease, as a kit.

It could of course be the calliper itself that is stuck, or a wheel bearing, but check the movement on those pins first.

Jim

Turboman said:

50ft semi trad canal boat. Shared ownership with me!

There are some pics of it in the boat fred!

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Sorry is I got the wrong poster name before Turboman (doh)
Ooooo very very nice. !. We seriously seriously considered a Canal boat and were planning on having one built at Salterforth in Lancs. Then we decided that the 'yott' option was better as we wanted to see a bit of Europe - also - it was love at first sight for the boat . Did consider the french canals at one time also. After 10 years full time live aboards most of the 'joy of the water' was diminished and we 'swallowed the anchor' and went for a rental property in Portugal. I bet you have a super time with it! . Nice choice mate.
Joe