injection timing issue?

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pos

pos

Well-Known Member
Posts
3,685
Location
West Yorkshire
Hello,

Would over advanced timing on a 200tdi cause gray / bluey smoke at tickover? With everything aligned and the pump locking pin in place to set timing, it bellows out white smoke and runs like crap. If I advance it it runs great, albeit a little clattery but with smoke at tickover and blue when pulling away. Its not burning oil, injectors are refurbed and the pump is brand new.

Am I just missing the sweet spot?
Cheers
-Pos
 
The Mad Hat Man said:
Pump locking pin ain't timing - yu need to align cam timing belt mark. Means cover orf:(.
Click to expand...

Cheers Daft,

I was contemplating taking the cover off again just to check that everything was aligned on the crank and the cam shaft and that the woodruff key had not worn the keyway on the crank. When I installed the new pump, I took the belt off (because I didnt have a tool to hold the pulley in place). I locked the flywheel at TDC (with doo-dah in the wading hole) and checked that the woodruff key on the crank was aligned with the pip on the timing case. I then ensured that the camshaft pips were aligned and put the belt on so that it was tight between the crank, cam and injection pump. Then I slackened the three bolts on the injection pump pulley, inserted the locking pin (which i thought DID time the pump?) and tensioned the belt. Tightened everything up and away we go, Is this not correct?

-Pos
 
sounds like your correct with timing ,its worth turning pump nut clockwise against pin when tightening 3 x pump bolt ,i would try another set injectors ,poor cam timing does give dirty smoke ,what was the original reason for changing pump and injectors
 
jamesmartin said:
sounds like your correct with timing ,its worth turning pump nut clockwise against pin when tightening 3 x pump bolt ,i would try another set injectors ,poor cam timing does give dirty smoke ,what was the original reason for changing pump and injectors
Click to expand...

I will have a go at setting the timing again next week. I installed new nozzles and then had each injection tested, setup and tested again by a dieael engineer to eradicate a poor performance issue. It runs sweet as a nut and has bags of power so the injectors have made a huge difference. I put a new pump on because it was a brand new eBay bargain. I have a feeling thatthe timing is just a little too advanced now, so backing it off slightly might help.

Cheers
-Pos
 
pos said:
I will have a go at setting the timing again next week. I installed new nozzles and then had each injection tested, setup and tested again by a dieael engineer to eradicate a poor performance issue. It runs sweet as a nut and has bags of power so the injectors have made a huge difference. I put a new pump on because it was a brand new eBay bargain. I have a feeling thatthe timing is just a little too advanced now, so backing it off slightly might help.

Cheers
-Pos
Click to expand...


Hi Pos,
I would like to learn what solves this problem.
WHITE-ish smoke on start-up and tickover is usually either unburnt fuel, or steaming because a duff headgasket is leaking H2O into a cylinder.

The timing would need to be WAY out to cause the sort of troubles you describe.

How sure are you that the new pump was set up SPECIFICALLY for a LR 200 tdi? These same pumps were used on lots of cars and vans and even tractors, diggers and God only knows all what, and they were all set up quite differently inside, even though they look the same outside, and fit the engine.

CharlesY
 
CharlesY said:
Hi Pos,
I would like to learn what solves this problem.
WHITE-ish smoke on start-up and tickover is usually either unburnt fuel, or steaming because a duff headgasket is leaking H2O into a cylinder.

The timing would need to be WAY out to cause the sort of troubles you describe.

How sure are you that the new pump was set up SPECIFICALLY for a LR 200 tdi? These same pumps were used on lots of cars and vans and even tractors, diggers and God only knows all what, and they were all set up quite differently inside, even though they look the same outside, and fit the engine.

CharlesY
Click to expand...

Hi CharlesY,

A well known and trusted land rover mechanic and I were experimenting with the pump timing a couple of weeks ago. With the locking pin in place and the timing set correctly on the cam and the crank, the engine would start fine but as soon as i touched the throttle it would create clouds of white / blue smoke and it woul run extremely rough. It would drive fine however or the smoke would clear and the engine would smooth out as soon as there was any load put on the engine. With the injection timing advanced, it will start fine and when revved will produce a bit of dark gray / blue smoke but nothing as bad as with the timing set "correctly". The turbo does not pick up as quickly as it would with the timing set correctly and it sounds a little rattlier (as you'd expect). I can only imagine that there is a sweet spot somewhere in-between the two (a minute adjustment) or that I am a tooth out on the cam or the crank. As for the pump, all the part numbers match that of the pump I removed. As for the internal components i do not know. It was advertised as a genuine land rover (Bosch) 200 tdi injection pump and it is brand new. The engine isnt using any water or any oil.

-Pos
 
pos said:
Hi CharlesY,

A well known and trusted land rover mechanic and I were experimenting with the pump timing a couple of weeks ago. With the locking pin in place and the timing set correctly on the cam and the crank, the engine would start fine but as soon as i touched the throttle it would create clouds of white / blue smoke and it woul run extremely rough. It would drive fine however or the smoke would clear and the engine would smooth out as soon as there was any load put on the engine. With the injection timing advanced, it will start fine and when revved will produce a bit of dark gray / blue smoke but nothing as bad as with the timing set "correctly". The turbo does not pick up as quickly as it would with the timing set correctly and it sounds a little rattlier (as you'd expect). I can only imagine that there is a sweet spot somewhere in-between the two (a minute adjustment) or that I am a tooth out on the cam or the crank. As for the pump, all the part numbers match that of the pump I removed. As for the internal components i do not know. It was advertised as a genuine land rover (Bosch) 200 tdi injection pump and it is brand new. The engine isnt using any water or any oil.

-Pos
Click to expand...

OK .... I suspect that the pump is mis-timed on the belt, probably by one or two teeth,

I suggest the pump is running RETARDED, that is, injecting LATE.

If it was injecting advanced, the engine would be making a Hell of a diesel clatter especially when you touched the throttle, and the smoke would be less or none.

I think the reason for the smoke may BAD COMBUSTION due to late injection, and the exhaust valves opening before combustion is complete.

HOWEVER !!!!!

Very similar symptoms can arise if the valve clearances on even ONE valve are too small or no clearance. This kills compression stone dead.

If an INLET valve is not sealing, some the air the air from that cylinder and possibly some raw fuel vapour will go back into the inlet manifold, compression will be low and ignition bad, and there will be a heap of bad smoke into the exhaust manifold.

If an EXHAUST valve is not sealing, compression is lost, ignition is late or not at all, and bad smoke goes into the exhaust system.

So ... stage one - check the valve clearances carefully. Set them to 8 - 10 thou the whole lot. Were any of them very tight?

Now turn the engine over by hand on the crankshaft pulley in the right direction. FEEL and LISTEN. Each compression should feel the same as the others, and you should not hear hissing of air going past any of the valves.

Mangled piston rings or a cracked piston might cause similar symptoms, but it is less likely.

Please let us know what it was when you find it.

CharlesY
 
CharlesY said:
OK .... I suspect that the pump is mis-timed on the belt, probably by one or two teeth,

I suggest the pump is running RETARDED, that is, injecting LATE.

If it was injecting advanced, the engine would be making a Hell of a diesel clatter especially when you touched the throttle, and the smoke would be less or none.

I think the reason for the smoke may BAD COMBUSTION due to late injection, and the exhaust valves opening before combustion is complete.

HOWEVER !!!!!

Very similar symptoms can arise if the valve clearances on even ONE valve are too small or no clearance. This kills compression stone dead.

If an INLET valve is not sealing, some the air the air from that cylinder and possibly some raw fuel vapour will go back into the inlet manifold, compression will be low and ignition bad, and there will be a heap of bad smoke into the exhaust manifold.

If an EXHAUST valve is not sealing, compression is lost, ignition is late or not at all, and bad smoke goes into the exhaust system.

So ... stage one - check the valve clearances carefully. Set them to 8 - 10 thou the whole lot. Were any of them very tight?

Now turn the engine over by hand on the crankshaft pulley in the right direction. FEEL and LISTEN. Each compression should feel the same as the others, and you should not hear hissing of air going past any of the valves.

Mangled piston rings or a cracked piston might cause similar symptoms, but it is less likely.

Please let us know what it was when you find it.

CharlesY
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for that extremely informative and concise reply, I can always rely on you for diesel troubleshooting :). I will start by setting all of the valve clearances and see if it makes any difference. I can understand exactly where you are coming from with regards to the timing being out. With the pump advanced as far as it can on the adjuster plate it might still be injecting late, so if the valve clearances make no difference, I will whip the cover off, have a look, take the belt off and set it again with the flywheel locked at tdc.

I will let you know what I find,
Thanks again,

-Pos
 
pos said:
Cheers Daft,

I was contemplating taking the cover off again just to check that everything was aligned on the crank and the cam shaft and that the woodruff key had not worn the keyway on the crank. When I installed the new pump, I took the belt off (because I didnt have a tool to hold the pulley in place). I locked the flywheel at TDC (with doo-dah in the wading hole) and checked that the woodruff key on the crank was aligned with the pip on the timing case. I then ensured that the camshaft pips were aligned and put the belt on so that it was tight between the crank, cam and injection pump. Then I slackened the three bolts on the injection pump pulley, inserted the locking pin (which i thought DID time the pump?) and tensioned the belt. Tightened everything up and away we go, Is this not correct?

-Pos
Click to expand...

Sorry Pos - just seen this - it is usual practice, when having done that, to rotate the crank a couple of times (with locking pins out :D) to check that nothing moves when being rotated. Then check it again.
 
The Mad Hat Man said:
Sorry Pos - just seen this - it is usual practice, when having done that, to rotate the crank a couple of times (with locking pins out :D) to check that nothing moves when being rotated. Then check it again.
Click to expand...


Absolutely ... ideally with glowplugs out to make it easy to turn the engine over as many times as you can be bothered doing, and CHECK CHECK CHECK the accuracy of the timing marks, AND re-check the tensioner on the belt after turning it over.

The ONLY way to do belt tension right is to use a direct reading torque spanner so the torque (i.e. the correct TENSION) can be held while the tensioner locknut is tightened up. I just mention that because I once saw someone use a clicking torque spanner on one, and the belt jumped the pulleys soon after.

CharlesY
 
Well I can immediately think of a few things that make me doubt my timing is correct now. First of all I did not tension the belt to any specific torque (I don't have a torque gauge) :eek: so I simply held the tensioner in such a position that the belt was tight but not ridiculous. It certainly didn't get checked afterwards and re-torqued. secondly, ensuring the timing pips were aligned was difficult due to the radiator and a-bar, but I am confident they were correct. Well, i guess you learn from your mistakes and its more than likely that I pulled the cam shaft around slightly when I tightened everything up. I will have a look behind the timing cover tomorrow afternoon (weather permitting) to see what a balls up I have made.

Thanks again for the help
-Pos
 
Ta, ill give it a read. I've also just watched the 200tdi timing video on YouTube courtesy of 'trailer fitter', so I can kind of see where I've home wrong!
 
pos said:
Ta, ill give it a read. I've also just watched the 200tdi timing video on YouTube courtesy of 'trailer fitter', so I can kind of see where I've home wrong!
Click to expand...


Well now, we are all sitting on the edges of our seats waiting to find out who was right!

We should run a book on LandyZone Diagnostics!

I bet your valve clearances are OK, but for all the time it takes, check them first just in case.

BUT ... if you know that the timing belt tensioner has not been properly torqued up, I suggest you MUST open it up again, and do it right.

If you don't the belt may run slack and jump a few notches, and that's disastrous usually, mangling pushrods for sure, and perhaps bending valves.

So, you get in there, fix it, and let us know please.
That's how we all learn stuff.

CharlesY
 
CharlesY said:
Well now, we are all sitting on the edges of our seats waiting to find out who was right!

We should run a book on LandyZone Diagnostics!

I bet your valve clearances are OK, but for all the time it takes, check them first just in case.

BUT ... if you know that the timing belt tensioner has not been properly torqued up, I suggest you MUST open it up again, and do it right.

If you don't the belt may run slack and jump a few notches, and that's disastrous usually, mangling pushrods for sure, and perhaps bending valves.

So, you get in there, fix it, and let us know please.
That's how we all learn stuff.

CharlesY
Click to expand...

It is indeed :) ill take the front cover off and check everything regardless and I will torque the belt correctly. then, when I know everything is right i can relax. I'm hoping to find that my belt is out a tooth on the cam, that would really save me a lot of hassle than the problem turning out to be something else like my new pump, an injector or a head gasket problem. I will report back as soon as I find the problem and fix it. Bare in mind, that it was running without a hitch before I fitted the new pump, a job that involved me having to remove the belt ;)
 
Last edited:
I'm taking my 90 down to my local specialists tomorrow morning and I'm going to whip the cover off and weigh things up down there. I will report back with my findings and then obviously with the necessary fix. I'm hoping to get it all sorted within five hours :)

-Pos
 
pos said:
I'm taking my 90 down to my local specialists tomorrow morning and I'm going to whip the cover off and weigh things up down there. I will report back with my findings and then obviously with the necessary fix. I'm hoping to get it all sorted within five hours :)

-Pos
Click to expand...

One point I forgot to say earlier - in every case of an engine with a camshaft and/or injection pump driven by what amounts to a rubber band with teeth, NEVER EVER TURN THE ENGINE BACKWARDS!

Serious harm can come to the tensioner device if the engine rotates the wrong way, and there's a severe risk the belt might come slack on what should be the tight sides, and let it jump a tooth or two. In a 200-300 tdi Landy engine, the risk would be to jump a tooth on the camshaft first. Bad.

The RIGHT WAY is CLOCKWISE looking at the crankshaft pulley from the front.

Mentioned just in case ....

CharlesY
 
CharlesY said:
One point I forgot to say earlier - in every case of an engine with a camshaft and/or injection pump driven by what amounts to a rubber band with teeth, NEVER EVER TURN THE ENGINE BACKWARDS!

Serious harm can come to the tensioner device if the engine rotates the wrong way, and there's a severe risk the belt might come slack on what should be the tight sides, and let it jump a tooth or two. In a 200-300 tdi Landy engine, the risk would be to jump a tooth on the camshaft first. Bad.

The RIGHT WAY is CLOCKWISE looking at the crankshaft pulley from the front.

Mentioned just in case ....

CharlesY
Click to expand...

Ahh well this is all ringing very true and looking more and more embarrassing on my part! I have been known to wind the engine back ever so slightly if I have gone past a certain TDC Mark on the crank pulley so that I can insert the locking pin through the flywheel housing and into the flywheel slot :eek:

My plan for tomorrow is as follows:

- Remove Timing Cover
- Align woodruff key on crank to timing mark on casing
- Inspect cam timing marks in adjacent to crank pulley timing marks
- If timing marks are mis-aligned, I will remove belt and align timing marks
- Slacken 3x pump pulley bolts & fit pump locking tool to set timing
- Fit & correctly tension belt
- Tighten 3x pump oulley bolts & remove pump locking tool
- Turn engine over 2x rotations of the crank
- Re-check timing marks align
- Re-check pump locking pin slots in and out easily
- Re-tension belt
- Re-fit timing cover etc.
- Correctly adjust all valve clearances

-Pos
 
Last edited:
have yu got the full timing tool kit - ie locking pins and pullers etc? - yu need to lock the crank with the pin thru the flywheel., not just line up the pulley.
 
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