Disco 1 Improved cooling

Hi all,
I am having issues with high exhaust gas temperature on 300tdi after tuning the pump. Before purchasing a expensive double core intrcooler from alisport I am thinking to make some home improvments to the cooling. I am thinking something in terms of taking front grille off or adding an electric vent on the intrcooler.
Did any of you try some diy cooling improvements?

Thanks
Vlado

Have you still got the viscous fan & cowling on?

Hicap phill said:

Have you still got the viscous fan & cowling on?

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Fan and cowling are genuine, didnt do any mods to neither one..

Ok. If standard & still getting hot no little fan on the intercoooler won’t be much use.
To put another large electric fan on could conflict with the air flow
Go for the bigger cooler before you start melting pistons

What temp you got for the gasses?

What boost are you running?
Are you getting lots of black smoke?

Cheers

Hicap phill said:

Ok. If standard & still getting hot no little fan on the intercoooler won’t be much use.
To put another large electric fan on could conflict with the air flow
Go for the bigger cooler before you start melting pistons

What temp you got for the gasses?

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Yes, I will have to buy this pricey intercooler. The car is my primary moneymaker, so I guess the I can give him a treat
Standard suburban ride about 350C on motorway with loaded trailer 2tons about 500C and 600C on steep hills. I never go over 700C
On the weekend I took the head of, it was warped 0.42mm - assembled it all back together. Now I have to improve the cooling before it warps again

neilly said:

What boost are you running?
Are you getting lots of black smoke?

Cheers

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I have boost pin, boost ring and 0.2 added pressure on turbo. Yes, I get black smoke

And what about driving without front grille?

DefenderScout said:

Yes, I will have to buy this pricey intercooler. The car is my primary moneymaker, so I guess the I can give him a treat
Standard suburban ride about 350C on motorway with loaded trailer 2tons about 500C and 600C on steep hills. I never go over 700C
On the weekend I took the head of, it was warped 0.42mm - assembled it all back together. Now I have to improve the cooling before it warps again


I have boost pin, boost ring and 0.2 added pressure on turbo. Yes, I get black smoke

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It will be the pin causing the smoke, try it with the standard pin but rotate is clockwise 1/4 of a turn, it has a much more gentle ramp than the tuning pins which just allow massive amounts of fuel in even with no/low boost, hence the smoke.

As far as I know, the better intercooler in itself will give you better performance by far than changes made to the fuelling, you should also consider a sports exhaust first. That will get the head flowing much better, exhaust moving out faster will keep things cooler too in that department. Whenever I start tuning a car the first things I look at are gas flow, i.e exhaust and inlet, (see intercooler) then camshaft. (Petrol only obviously) . Then valves. Only once the gases are flowing as well as possible can you start to look at other performance enhancing fuelling moves.
The sports exhaust on my 300tdi made such a difference I did little else, apart from ensuring the air filter was free flowing, putting silicon hoses in and de-egring. I also kept or improved economy, which to me is always a concern.
Remember that burning fuel more efficiently gives both power and performance. Once you've got that you can consider trying to burn more fuel, to get even more power, but obviously that costs money in fuel consumed, and you still have to get rid of the burnt exhaust gases, so you are into bigger valves, etc etc. Changing the fuelling seems like a quick fix, and it is to a certain extent, but I'd advise improving other things first.

Stanleysteamer said:

As far as I know, the better intercooler in itself will give you better performance by far than changes made to the fuelling, you should also consider a sports exhaust first. That will get the head flowing much better, exhaust moving out faster will keep things cooler too in that department. Whenever I start tuning a car the first things I look at are gas flow, i.e exhaust and inlet, (see intercooler) then camshaft. (Petrol only obviously) . Then valves. Only once the gases are flowing as well as possible can you start to look at other performance enhancing fuelling moves.
The sports exhaust on my 300tdi made such a difference I did little else, apart from ensuring the air filter was free flowing, putting silicon hoses in and de-egring. I also kept or improved economy, which to me is always a concern.
Remember that burning fuel more efficiently gives both power and performance. Once you've got that you can consider trying to burn more fuel, to get even more power, but obviously that costs money in fuel consumed, and you still have to get rid of the burnt exhaust gases, so you are into bigger valves, etc etc. Changing the fuelling seems like a quick fix, and it is to a certain extent, but I'd advise improving other things first.

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Its actually the other way around, extra fuel = more power, but extra cooling means you can use that power for harder and longer before it self destructs.
You know when you have gone to far when it starts to black smoke.
Its a very thin line between power and smoke with such a low tech/low powered engine, even the weather can make a difference.

Look at it like this of the many hundreds of remap companies in the uk, how many offer larger intercoolers?
The simple fact is very few people use their car to the max non stop, with todays traffic you simply cant, so the larger intercooler isnt essential.

I am happy with the boost pin and ring performance as is. Smoke does not bother me much. Its not that bad. Only smokes when I suddenly open full throttle, but this is quite normal for diesel engine I would think.

For sure I would like to improve cooling. I use the d1 as a tow truck and really need the extra power. Before the tuning adjustments the poor d1 had to shift 2nd gear on steep motorways. After tuning I almost never have to shift below 4 on a open motorway, even uphill.

Yes, and also I have a straight middle exhaust (no silencer)

I guess I will order the alisport double core intercooler and a set of new hoses

lynall said:

Its actually the other way around, extra fuel = more power, but extra cooling means you can use that power for harder and longer before it self destructs.
You know when you have gone to far when it starts to black smoke.
Its a very thin line between power and smoke with such a low tech/low powered engine, even the weather can make a difference.

Look at it like this of the many hundreds of remap companies in the uk, how many offer larger intercoolers?
The simple fact is very few people use their car to the max non stop, with todays traffic you simply cant, so the larger intercooler isnt essential.

Click to expand...

Actually, to say "more fuel = more power" and that "it is the other way round" is a/ a gross oversimplification and b/ not even true, cos if the "more fuel" cannot be aspirated into the engine efficiently, burnt efficiently and then got rid of efficiently, then the extra fuel gives nowhere near as much extra power as it could. To burn the "more fuel" efficiently you need the more air, or denser air which comes from the intercooler.
And how can you remap a D1 unless it is auto, which OP's isn't.
I agree totally with his decision to go for a bigger intercooler, though one from a P38 would be cheaper than say an Alisports one. See http://www.dieselbob.co.uk/DieselTuning.aspx for the four things he says would need to be done to mechanically tune an old, pre map, diesel.
You'll notice intercooler is right there up with tuning the pump.
Still think he needed to mention the exhaust though. Td5 Disco, centre box removed, made NO difference to my vehicle at all. D1 SPORTS exhaust fitted, i.e. wider bore through out and only one box at the rear, (bought through LR specialist), massive improvement. Removing the centre box does not make the rest of the exhaust more effficient it just removes some of the obstructive nature of the silencer, which sadly, is not a lot. So I wonder whether OP needs to think about that.
I accept that the OM built the cars without ultimate power in their minds and that yes, on a TD5 a remap probably would make a decent difference, but that is not putting more fuel in it is just using efficiently the fuel available. We could argue about what "fuel available " means in a modern motor, I suppose.
If you disagree with me on general tuning of internal combustion engines then why not try reading something from an acknowledged expert like David Vizard, who was very active around the time the D1 was about. you'll find he, and others, all agree on the necessity to improve flow before anything else.

Stanleysteamer said:

Actually, to say "more fuel = more power" and that "it is the other way round" is a/ a gross oversimplification and b/ not even true, cos if the "more fuel" cannot be aspirated into the engine efficiently, burnt efficiently and then got rid of efficiently, then the extra fuel gives nowhere near as much extra power as it could. To burn the "more fuel" efficiently you need the more air, or denser air which comes from the intercooler.
And how can you remap a D1 unless it is auto, which OP's isn't.
I agree totally with his decision to go for a bigger intercooler, though one from a P38 would be cheaper than say an Alisports one. See http://www.dieselbob.co.uk/DieselTuning.aspx for the four things he says would need to be done to mechanically tune an old, pre map, diesel.
You'll notice intercooler is right there up with tuning the pump.
Still think he needed to mention the exhaust though. Td5 Disco, centre box removed, made NO difference to my vehicle at all. D1 SPORTS exhaust fitted, i.e. wider bore through out and only one box at the rear, (bought through LR specialist), massive improvement. Removing the centre box does not make the rest of the exhaust more effficient it just removes some of the obstructive nature of the silencer, which sadly, is not a lot. So I wonder whether OP needs to think about that.
I accept that the OM built the cars without ultimate power in their minds and that yes, on a TD5 a remap probably would make a decent difference, but that is not putting more fuel in it is just using efficiently the fuel available. We could argue about what "fuel available " means in a modern motor, I suppose.
If you disagree with me on general tuning of internal combustion engines then why not try reading something from an acknowledged expert like David Vizard, who was very active around the time the D1 was about. you'll find he, and others, all agree on the necessity to improve flow before anything else.

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with a tdi youve a fair bit of scope increasing fuel and boost before, gas flow becomes relevant and often is all thats needed before spending

Really? So you'd increase boost, presumably with a more powerful turbo and then do the pump before changing the exhaust?
I bow to your superior knowledge but have to say I am surprised, especially in view of the increase in performance gained from my sports exhaust. If I was to do anything further to it, which is doubtful, I may now consider fiddling with the pump, but I'd expect to see mpg drop, or would I be wrong on that too?

Stanleysteamer said:

Really? So you'd increase boost, presumably with a more powerful turbo and then do the pump before changing the exhaust?
I bow to your superior knowledge but have to say I am surprised, especially in view of the increase in performance gained from my sports exhaust. If I was to do anything further to it, which is doubtful, I may now consider fiddling with the pump, but I'd expect to see mpg drop, or would I be wrong on that too?

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no same turbo,adjust the waste gate, a turbo engine is different to a normally aspirated where cam lift and gas flow is essential to get enough air in there

jamesmartin said:

no same turbo,adjust the waste gate, a turbo engine is different to a normally aspirated where cam lift and gas flow is essential to get enough air in there

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I was aware that the cam is not so important when a turbo is fitted but, although I had read about adjusting the waste gate, I was not sure how well looked-upon this was by those really in the know. What sort of pressure are we talking about adjusting it to?
And will all this help OP with his exhaust heat problem? Am I wrong in thinking that a freer flowing exhaust would get more heat out from under the bonnet?

Stanleysteamer said:

I was aware that the cam is not so important when a turbo is fitted but, although I had read about adjusting the waste gate, I was not sure how well looked-upon this was by those really in the know. What sort of pressure are we talking about adjusting it to?
And will all this help OP with his exhaust heat problem? Am I wrong in thinking that a freer flowing exhaust would get more heat out from under the bonnet?

Click to expand...

a few psi ,you need to watch egt (exhaust gas temps)to prevent engine damage, pump tweaking and boost are 2 cheap simple mods you can make which is usually more than enough for most, obviously you can go further larger intercoolers ,wide bore exhausts variable vane turbos to give lower end boost ,gas flowing, big valves etc

Stanleysteamer said:

Actually, to say "more fuel = more power" and that "it is the other way round" is a/ a gross oversimplification and b/ not even true, cos if the "more fuel" cannot be aspirated into the engine efficiently, burnt efficiently and then got rid of efficiently, then the extra fuel gives nowhere near as much extra power as it could. To burn the "more fuel" efficiently you need the more air, or denser air which comes from the intercooler.
And how can you remap a D1 unless it is auto, which OP's isn't.
I agree totally with his decision to go for a bigger intercooler, though one from a P38 would be cheaper than say an Alisports one. See http://www.dieselbob.co.uk/DieselTuning.aspx for the four things he says would need to be done to mechanically tune an old, pre map, diesel.
You'll notice intercooler is right there up with tuning the pump.
Still think he needed to mention the exhaust though. Td5 Disco, centre box removed, made NO difference to my vehicle at all. D1 SPORTS exhaust fitted, i.e. wider bore through out and only one box at the rear, (bought through LR specialist), massive improvement. Removing the centre box does not make the rest of the exhaust more effficient it just removes some of the obstructive nature of the silencer, which sadly, is not a lot. So I wonder whether OP needs to think about that.
I accept that the OM built the cars without ultimate power in their minds and that yes, on a TD5 a remap probably would make a decent difference, but that is not putting more fuel in it is just using efficiently the fuel available. We could argue about what "fuel available " means in a modern motor, I suppose.
If you disagree with me on general tuning of internal combustion engines then why not try reading something from an acknowledged expert like David Vizard, who was very active around the time the D1 was about. you'll find he, and others, all agree on the necessity to improve flow before anything else.

Click to expand...

The general route for tuning a tdi any tdi apart from the edc models (which by the way didnt come out until 1995 so all autos previous to this were std inj pumps, is to give the pump a tweak and crack on.

Years ago I spent ages with thermocouples and tuned tdi and td5 models and what I found from first hand experience not someone elses, was the intercooler made very little difference to the temperature at the manifold.

If you have a l/r product fit a larger intercooler and report back as to your findings.

I read the vizard books many moons ago.

Stanleysteamer said:

I was aware that the cam is not so important when a turbo is fitted but, although I had read about adjusting the waste gate, I was not sure how well looked-upon this was by those really in the know. What sort of pressure are we talking about adjusting it to?
And will all this help OP with his exhaust heat problem? Am I wrong in thinking that a freer flowing exhaust would get more heat out from under the bonnet?

Click to expand...

You can adjust it to what you like but it wont make much difference and Iirc the std turbo tops out at 18 maybe 20psi.

Also found the sports exhausts dont make much differerence on the tdis.

If you have messed with the tuning pins you would know why I was suggesting go back to std.

No, I haven't messed with the tuning pins. Was never going for out and out performance, just driveability and economy. Sadly my 300tdi awaits my attention as regards bodywork so has been off the road for sometime and unlikely to be back on the road before a while.
As you can probably tell, I am really a bit old-school when it comes to tuning and work most of the time on normally aspirated engines of the 1960s/70s/80s. Turbos and superchargers I do understand but the electrickery of the ECUs is all a black art to me and I would have to consult someone else if I wanted to be bothered. Nevertheless, an internal combustion engine is still that and much of what held true in the old days must still hold true.It is still "suck, squeeze, bang, blow". It is just that some of the parameters that could not be changed at a nanosecond's notice, can now be changed endlessly by the on board computer.
I am hugely grateful to all the posters on this and other threads who have huge knowledge of what works, what doesn't and above all, what goes on inside the electrical boxes of tricks. If life had gone differently I might have had time to keep up with all the latest stuff, including variable vane turbos and VVT cams. But, as you can tell, I have only lately come to get a lot more stuck in on learning all this stuff and passing on first hand stuff to do with LRs that I have experienced and that I know works.
Here's hoping OP gets enough out of this to cool his exhaust, but I am wondering a bit if his problem might be down to his work being towing so he cannot get up to the speeds where the cooling effect would offset the work he is getting the engine to do. We could also talk about exhaust wrap, but that tends just to shift the problem further down the pipe and it is a fiddly pain to do well. Also it would not sort out any head warping problems. Maybe a recored higher capacity rad??
Underbonnet temperatures are often a pain in the kit car world where I spent a lot of time. People get to do all sorts of crazy things to sort it out. From cutting louvres, to using computer fans to cool the fuel inlet areas. Dolomite Sprints used to suffer from this too and I even heard of a guy who fitted a boat's bilge pump to the cooling circuit to help it work. Others put multi-bladed water pumps in. This was really a bit of a design fault on behalf of Triumph although a properly maintained one did not suffer so much. And they warped heads for a pastime. (Guess how I know! .)