1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome To LandyZone!

    LandyZone is the biggest Land Rover forum on the net. We have plenty of very knowledgable members so if you have any questions about your Land Rover or just want to connect with other Landy owners, you're in the right place.

    Registering is free and easy just click here, we hope to see you on the forums soon!

help advice for sickly disco

Discussion in 'Land Rover Discovery' started by DJB, Jan 1, 2012.

< Previous Thread | Next Thread >
  1. DJB

    DJB New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Posts:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Guys,
    Before posting I have had a good read around the web and on this forum.
    I have a Disco II 2002 (52) TD5 ES and recently drove up to the Midlands to visit family, the vehicle performed fine there and back until I reached London and in standing traffic I became aware of vibration, not a fast one but slow and a lack of power and more engine noise. The vehicle still drove and there are no warning lights.
    I left it till the morning as it was late and had a read of the web, particularly injector harness and oil migration to the ecu.
    Went down to the car in the morning and checked under the bonnet for anything amiss… nothing… started fine no noise no vibration.. took a quick trip down to Halfords to pick up some bits.. Came back to the car with my shopping and all the symptoms of the night before were back.
    Drove home very gently.. and investigated further. First off I disconnected the earth terminal and removed the ECU… there was a tiny amount of oil in the red socket.. more damp than wet.
    Used a solvent spray to clean up the plug and socket on the ecu and the connection to the injector loom (which was replaced a couple of years ago) and reassembled it.
    No improvement. I inspected the wiring for abrasions and found none, took the rocker cover off and inspected the wiring and disconnected each injector plug cleaned and reconnected.
    Still no improvement. I believe it is misfiring or that one of the cylinders is not firing at all. That said I am not completely confident that this is actually the case and I am concerned there could be something more fundamentally wrong. Hence my plea for help.
    I have not removed the ECU cover as the quantity of oil was really small.
    Before I replace the injector loom does anyone have any other suggestions? I do not have a nanocom or hawkeye, but I have written to someone on the nanocom list www.discovery2.co.uk/ Nanocom Locator, get help from your Land Rover Buddies!!! (no response yet).
    Could anyone explain the science behind the injector loom fault? How is the oil actually interfering? Presumably it is acting as an insulator or adding resistance to the solenoid closing signal?
    If there is anyone in or around the South London area who fancies a cup of tea or stronger willing to visit perhaps with a diagnostic tool I would be grateful of the time and suggestions.
    There is nothing better than experience and seeing and hearing a problem first hand.
    Thanks in advance
     
  2. jamesmartin

    jamesmartin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2010
    Posts:
    81,205
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Location:
    louth lincs
    have you undone connetor were loom comes out of rocker box at the front were ot joins main loom ,this is were the fault usually lies ,you fit new injector loom and clean out main loom at both ends regulary till dry
     
  3. CharlesY

    CharlesY Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Posts:
    7,084
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    BANNED
    There are probably two main causes of this sort of problem in a TD5.

    In both cases, diagnostic tools will NOT detect the faults, which I suggest are:

    1. OIL from the engine getting into the harness, and reaching the ECU plug-socket interface. It does NOT need to enter the ECU to cause the problem. Once the oil has built up enough in the RED PLUG and the socket on the ECU, it starts to affect the electric signals to the injectors.

    2. a leaking copper washer between an injector tip and its combustion chamber. Let's rule this out meantime.

    Even though you say you have cleaned out the visible oil, I am going to suggest that you do it again, and this time you do it using an air-line and an air-jet, and switch-cleaner fluid.

    IN MY EXPERIENCE no other method of cleaning out the oil works as well as the air-jet. Wear Goggles or get oil / crap in your eyes.

    It is easy to clean out the socket part that is on the ECU. In fact, using the airjet GENTLY so as not to drive the oil into the ECU, the socket can be cleaned completely free of oil, then a little skoosh of cleaner fluid, and a final blast to dry it off, and that's that bit done.

    What isn't so easy is the RED PLUG part on the end of the cable. De-oiling the red plug is the bit that takes the time, and matters most. This is where a whole lot of air from the air-jet comes in. You just spend ten minutes with the air-jet pistol in one hand and the red plug in the other, and you start air-jetting the holes and spaces of the plug from front and rear while you watch the naughty oil being blown out every which place on the plug. Then you wipe it clean. Then you jet it again and wipe it clean. And you keep doing this until there is no trace of oil in sight. A spray with cleaner and a final air jet and that should be that.

    Now you pray, and put it back together again.

    I do my TD5 Disco about every two months, and it always shows oil present, but two months or so is soon enough to do it before the trouble starts.

    Let us know how you get on.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2012
  4. DJB

    DJB New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Posts:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks guys for the replys,

    @CharlesY What spray cleaner (switch-cleaner fluid) or solvent do you use/recomend.

    I will have another go at it tomorow and and let you know how I get along, if I remember I will take some pics too.

    Thanks again
     
  5. CharlesY

    CharlesY Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Posts:
    7,084
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    BANNED


    I use Servisol Super 10. But that's only because I always have, and it works on switches and connectors.

    As far as the red PLUG goes, A little petrol would do no harm, but I would NOT use that on the ECU socket in case it helps the oil to penetrate into the ECU.

    As long as you have access to a compressor and an air-jet pistol, even WD-40 would be helpful, because it is based on kerosene, and will mix with the oil in the plug, thin it, dilute it, bulk it, and generally make it easier to blast out, but again, I suggest you don't use WD-40 on the socket of the ECU as it risks penetration and oil contamination.

    It is easy to see the ECU socket perfectly clean, but the plug is another matter. Do the ECU socket first, and then spend lots of time on the red plug. I usually hold a clean-ish rag and the red plug in one hand, and blast the air jet from the other hand. One can soon start to see when the amount of oil being blown out is reducing. Keep at it till there's NONE.

    Good luck, and please let me know how you get on.
     
  6. jamesmartin

    jamesmartin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2010
    Posts:
    81,205
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Location:
    louth lincs
    you do need to cure source of oil getting into loom which is injector loom to main loom connector ,changing injector loom will do that ,any aersol spray cleaner like brake cleaner would do ,if oil in loom is the case
     
  7. CharlesY

    CharlesY Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Posts:
    7,084
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    BANNED


    You don't NEED to do any such thing and even a brand new harness is practically certain to do it again but probably not as soon.

    It's a TD5 and they leak oil down the injector loom. Live with it.
    It takes ten minutes every month or three to clean it out. So ?

    I suggest you do NOT use "brake cleaner" or other solvents.
    Stick with substances that are designed to be used on low voltage electrics, and possibly a little petrol, or WD-40 - if you have a source of compressed air to blow it all out thoroughly.

    The plug and socket should be CLEAN AND DRY and OIL-FREE after the job.
     
  8. jamesmartin

    jamesmartin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2010
    Posts:
    81,205
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Location:
    louth lincs
    you live and tinker if you like , ive changed loads all have lasted years and i do check when back for servicing by unclipping connector at front of rocker box and aerosol spray can cleaners are perhaps more accessible to most people
     
  9. CharlesY

    CharlesY Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Posts:
    7,084
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    BANNED

    Yes of course James, you dear boy, you will know best, as you always do.
    You are the most wonderful fellow, and a joy to take advice from.

    But, reading that carefully, just what are you saying or advising?
    Everything up to "...rocker box and" is irrelevant drivel, and no-one ever suggested anything about you or your practices, so why did you dive into the defensive James? Guilty Conscience? Who can say?

    "Aerosol cans are perhaps more accessible to most people" than what James? You see James, dear boy, NO AEROSOL CAN IS ANY SUBSTITUTE FOR A COMPRESSOR AIRLINE AND AN AIR-JET PISTOL. No can comes even close, and if that's what you use, it's no wonder you feel the need to check them next time, as you say you do. It would be a lot more effective if you took the trouble to check the red plug where it meets the ECU, because that is where the electrical problems occur.

    And also, you do like to have the last word on everything, even when your last word is poor advice or even conjecture. So, let's all humour you again, as everyone seems to, and let you have that last word.

    It is a pity you didn't pay just a little more attention in your English classes at school (you did go to school?), because the basic concept of creating a sentence seems to have been lost on you. Perhaps it would be best if you would stick to spanners and hammers.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2012
  10. jamesmartin

    jamesmartin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2010
    Posts:
    81,205
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Location:
    louth lincs
    my advice is based on experience ,injector looms can leak change them and fix the problem ,at least in my experience ive never had to do one twice ,living with oil running down loom seems poor option ,not every one has access to air line, of course i check ,thats how i know the ones ive changed havent leaked ,a good engineer looks for stuff like that to add to knowledge, you felt the need to comment on what i said by quoting to reply would be expected, say what you want about me ,your behaviour before and during your ban might suggest you need to grow up
     
  11. CharlesY

    CharlesY Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Posts:
    7,084
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    BANNED

    Let's leave the members to form their opinions on that, James dear boy.

    Very Best Wishes for 2012 James, and if you will notify me of an address of your parents' home (I assume you still stay with Mummy and Daddy) I might send you a book on basic English Grammar for beginners.
     
  12. The Mad Hat Man

    The Mad Hat Man Well-Known Member LZIR Despatch Agent

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Posts:
    82,494
    Likes Received:
    8,143
    Location:
    Embasinga stocæ
    ffs :mad:

    getaroom :puke:
     
  13. jamesmartin

    jamesmartin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2010
    Posts:
    81,205
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Location:
    louth lincs
    your a bit late my mothers been dead for 20 years ,and my mrs and kids would be upset if i left home and went to stop at my dads ,but i could send you basic book of mechanics for beginners it might speed up your replies
     
  14. barmatt

    barmatt Well-Known Member LZIR Despatch Agent

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2008
    Posts:
    4,201
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    North Norfolk
    :5biagree: or shut the **** up! I think we're all bored with your childish bickering.
     
  15. pedros

    pedros Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2011
    Posts:
    287
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jeez! If you want to throw insults or try and belittle someone, why do it on an open forum?

    I think we grasped that he has poor spelling/grammar from reading his posts. But thanks for mentioning it twice unless someone missed it. Doesn't really take away from what he's saying though. Your opinion on the subject may differ, but attacking someone like that, you may be surprised to know won't make your opinion more right.

    Rather than make people think worse of him, it may make them wonder what motives you have for attacking him so. I wouldn't say on an open forum that it demonstrates any particular character traits you may have, but you run the risk of people judging you on such outbursts. Is this how you talk to people face to face?
     
  16. 50 pence

    50 pence New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2008
    Posts:
    1,471
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    Cambridgeshire
    Another thing to consider could be your in tank fuel pump on its way out.

    Turn on the ingnition, ( but do not crank ), and listen towards the rear for the pump " buzzing ". The pump is another common failure on the TD5.

    I,ve found that the red plug at the ECU is usually " swimming " in oil when missfiring occurs.

    The red plug on both my 2002 Discovery, and my brothers TD5 Defender were both very contaminated, and did not cause any running problems.

    They were both changed 3 odd years ago, and there has been no oil at the red plugs since.

    Del.
     
  17. CharlesY

    CharlesY Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Posts:
    7,084
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    BANNED

    Yes, agreed on all that.
    There are nylon mesh screen filters in TD5 fuel pumps and they can get choked up. I changed my pump at about 60k miles and as there was nothing to lose I opened up the old one - the screen filters were practically choked with black mess. I cleaned it all out, and have kept the pump. One day I will put it back and see if it works.

    This may be worth trying before fitting a new pump. Separating the pump sections needs a lot of care to avoid breaking the ridiculous small plastic tags that hold it together.

    Yes, when interference with engine running happens there is usually a lot of oil in the plug, but it isn't the actual OIL that causes the problem, it is stuff IN the oil that affects the insulation between the pins of the plug and socket. AIR and clean dry OIL are very good insulators, but dirty black oil isn't. It is worth keeping an eye on this plug and socket, just in case.

    Three years is pretty good! I cleaned mine out about a month ago after quite few months, and it wasn't swimming in oil or causing trouble, but it was a bit oily.

    My current problem is poor starting especially when the fuel level is low in the tank. I am in email contact with several others who have this problem. Who knows the solution?
     
  18. DJB

    DJB New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Posts:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks guys, for the info and suggestions.
    I will get an isopropyl alcohol spray (servicesol et al), going to order some from fleabay, may even see if i can get a litre or so in pure liquid then I could soak all the Plug ends in a jam jar.. 6 quid from amazon :eek:
    I think the air line recomendation is a good idea... just dont have one :frusty: at the moment.
    In the mean time Halfords is just down the road and they have an IPA spray and WD40.
    would white spirit/trichlorethylene do as a plug soak B&Q is next door.:scratching_chin:

    I will let you know how it goes, thank you all again.
     
  19. sierrafery

    sierrafery Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Posts:
    12,389
    Likes Received:
    1,536
    Location:
    West of Transylvania
    dont forget about the simple things though... put a new genuine fuel filter too...and by the way do u still have EGR fitted?...cos if it's there it could make u tricks aswell
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  20. jamesmartin

    jamesmartin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2010
    Posts:
    81,205
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Location:
    louth lincs
    id agree mr sierrafery there are many things that can cause issues ,but have found it good practice to do one at once,logically,so you know exactly the cause if you can, since oil has been seen in loom checking most obvious cause of oil entering loom at the connector from injector loom, which is known to give misfire whether ecu plug is contaminated or not easy enough to unplug and if wet easy and cheap enough to change injector loom,before moving on to next of which filter ,egr etc is a good start
     
< Previous Thread | Next Thread >