I've recently developed an alarming rattle from the engine on start up from cold on my bmw 4.4 m62 motor . It goes away after a few seconds and is fine on a hot start, I thought at first is was prob one of the hydraulic lifters, but I'm wondering if the timing chain tensioner could be the cause? Has anyone had a similar thing occur? Or could it be something more sinister ?
Engine rattle on cold start
- Thread starter paulvasey
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VANOS can rattle on start up...should not harm engine, just be noisey!!
That being said, you could check the timing chain tensioner hydraulic piston...this is mounted on the side of the timing chain cover and uses oil pressure to put tension on the chain guides, BMW forums are abound with information on this little thing!
That being said, they do tend to wear the guides, but the rattle would be more constant rather than just at start up.
Start by looking at the hydraulic tensioner as this is very common on the M62
That being said, you could check the timing chain tensioner hydraulic piston...this is mounted on the side of the timing chain cover and uses oil pressure to put tension on the chain guides, BMW forums are abound with information on this little thing!
That being said, they do tend to wear the guides, but the rattle would be more constant rather than just at start up.
Start by looking at the hydraulic tensioner as this is very common on the M62
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Generally only an overhaul of the VANOS system, not for the faint of heart!
This chap was always highly regarded when it comes to vanos related issues.
Mr Vanos - Bmw Vanos Repair Specialists - Home
I think he is supported by DrVanos in the states who used to do alot of work on E36 M3 Evo vanos as when the wrong oil grade is used it tends to get rattly. Its just as oil pressure is built up and in most cases its seals allowing the oil to leak away from the mechanism when the car is stood for a few days.
Often described as like marbles in a tin.
Mr Vanos - Bmw Vanos Repair Specialists - Home
I think he is supported by DrVanos in the states who used to do alot of work on E36 M3 Evo vanos as when the wrong oil grade is used it tends to get rattly. Its just as oil pressure is built up and in most cases its seals allowing the oil to leak away from the mechanism when the car is stood for a few days.
Often described as like marbles in a tin.
holidaychicken
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Thought i might as well resuscitate an oldish thread rather than start a new.
I also have an occasional growl when i start mine although its more common when its warm than cold but mostly random.
I have purchased a new cam chain tensioner and although they say it takes 5 - 15 minutes on a bmw, it doesnt look that easy on an L322.
Something else i stumbled across was a couple of one way valves that are designed to hold oil pressure to the vanos solenoid to prevent noise at start up and wondered if this might help as well so i purchased a couple of them. They fit behind the vanos solenoids
Timing Chain Tensioner 4.4 BMW (Genuine) LHP000050 8510259 Island 4x4 - Specialists in Land Rover and Range Rover Parts and accessories for all models. UK and worldwide mail order.
Although it says o ring it is actually an ally crush washer
Timing Chain Tensioner O-Ring 4.4 BMW (Genuine) RYX000020 Island 4x4 - Specialists in Land Rover and Range Rover Parts and accessories for all models. UK and worldwide mail order.
LDO000010 | VALVE ASSY - NON RETURN | Land Rover | | Britcar (UK) Ltd
The cam chain tensioner comes fitted with a small snap ring that holds the piston in the retracted position until its fitted but as soon as you collapse the piston slightly its releases the piston and i cant see a way of holding it back in place but hopefully that's not a problem. - Edit - Just make sure the clip is in the bottom groove of the piston, push the piston all the way back in and with a small thin screwdriver, push the clip inwards and it will catch back in the groove, i guess then when you push the piston in up against the guide, the compression will cause the clip to release and allow the piston to travel again.
Any ideas or thoughts anyone regarding changing the tensioner ?
I also have an occasional growl when i start mine although its more common when its warm than cold but mostly random.
I have purchased a new cam chain tensioner and although they say it takes 5 - 15 minutes on a bmw, it doesnt look that easy on an L322.
Something else i stumbled across was a couple of one way valves that are designed to hold oil pressure to the vanos solenoid to prevent noise at start up and wondered if this might help as well so i purchased a couple of them. They fit behind the vanos solenoids
Timing Chain Tensioner 4.4 BMW (Genuine) LHP000050 8510259 Island 4x4 - Specialists in Land Rover and Range Rover Parts and accessories for all models. UK and worldwide mail order.
Although it says o ring it is actually an ally crush washer
Timing Chain Tensioner O-Ring 4.4 BMW (Genuine) RYX000020 Island 4x4 - Specialists in Land Rover and Range Rover Parts and accessories for all models. UK and worldwide mail order.
LDO000010 | VALVE ASSY - NON RETURN | Land Rover | | Britcar (UK) Ltd
The cam chain tensioner comes fitted with a small snap ring that holds the piston in the retracted position until its fitted but as soon as you collapse the piston slightly its releases the piston and i cant see a way of holding it back in place but hopefully that's not a problem. - Edit - Just make sure the clip is in the bottom groove of the piston, push the piston all the way back in and with a small thin screwdriver, push the clip inwards and it will catch back in the groove, i guess then when you push the piston in up against the guide, the compression will cause the clip to release and allow the piston to travel again.
Any ideas or thoughts anyone regarding changing the tensioner ?
Last edited:
RRkev
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got a local garage to change mine, air box out and you can access it, although is awkward to get to can be done, regarding the op's rattle if you have over 100k on the engine and it's not been changed, change the tensioner. even with my new tensioner i found i was getting an occasional cold start up rattle, i find that this is normally a sign to change the oil it all goes quiet again then for another 7000-8000 miles
holidaychicken
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Thanks very much for the reply, I will give it a go i think, i have taken on much bigger jobs but the hardest part is always access or the bolts being stuck.
i run shell helix ultra 5w-40 and i get the same rattle even if i have just changed the oil recently. some people run the 0w-40 oil which i may try but some have said their rattle got worse after running the thinner oil.
First thing is to try the tensioner and then maybe the check valves but i guess i am on the slippery slope of replacing the chain guides and vanos seals
i run shell helix ultra 5w-40 and i get the same rattle even if i have just changed the oil recently. some people run the 0w-40 oil which i may try but some have said their rattle got worse after running the thinner oil.
First thing is to try the tensioner and then maybe the check valves but i guess i am on the slippery slope of replacing the chain guides and vanos seals
RRkev
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chain guides normally fail around 190k according to bmw boards, i've just fitted a lower temp thermostat too so hopefully that should help the oil to stay a little thicker.
another cause of rattle could be hydraulic lifters, check to see if you still have a knocking noise after cold start up, it caused by short runs and not allowing oil to heat up fully causing air pockets in the lifters, the official bmw bleed process is to get engine to operating temperature then hold the revs at 3000rpm for 3 mins then let tickover and check if rattle still exsists, it may take a few attempts to bleed the lifters properly. but this fixes most cam cover rattles/knocks. mine needs to be done but i do a lot of short journeys so not really bothered.
another cause of rattle could be hydraulic lifters, check to see if you still have a knocking noise after cold start up, it caused by short runs and not allowing oil to heat up fully causing air pockets in the lifters, the official bmw bleed process is to get engine to operating temperature then hold the revs at 3000rpm for 3 mins then let tickover and check if rattle still exsists, it may take a few attempts to bleed the lifters properly. but this fixes most cam cover rattles/knocks. mine needs to be done but i do a lot of short journeys so not really bothered.
holidaychicken
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i have looked at that mod a few times also as i would guess the lower temp is kind to the plastic chain guides as well.
Interesting point on the hydraulic lifters as i do drive like miss daisy and the furthest i go is probably a 15 mile each way trip, if i go any further i have to put a call into OPEC first.
well i tried to get to the tensioner and i can get a socket onto it providing it is not attached to anything as the A/C pipes are in the way or the lower rad pipe or the dipstick( which i have never managed to even see the bolt to remove let alone removed it)
so at the moment i am at the stage of swearing loads and throwing ratchets, short extensions, deep sockets, swivel joints, 3/8" ratchet, 1/2" ratchet, short socket with short extension, ring spanner, and have now said :censored: :censored: the :censored: :censored: slammed the bonnet and decided to try out my new spray gun instead
i'll return to it when i am prepared to remove the hose and possibly the dipstick or a/c lines
Interesting point on the hydraulic lifters as i do drive like miss daisy and the furthest i go is probably a 15 mile each way trip, if i go any further i have to put a call into OPEC first.
well i tried to get to the tensioner and i can get a socket onto it providing it is not attached to anything as the A/C pipes are in the way or the lower rad pipe or the dipstick( which i have never managed to even see the bolt to remove let alone removed it)
so at the moment i am at the stage of swearing loads and throwing ratchets, short extensions, deep sockets, swivel joints, 3/8" ratchet, 1/2" ratchet, short socket with short extension, ring spanner, and have now said :censored: :censored: the :censored: :censored: slammed the bonnet and decided to try out my new spray gun instead
i'll return to it when i am prepared to remove the hose and possibly the dipstick or a/c lines
RRkev
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people who have done it have said swivel adaptor and deep 19mm socket, it's prob why i got a garage to do mine lol
holidaychicken
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yeah tried those, it may be my lack of patience and also i could do with an extra pair of hands at times which would help a lot as one person can hold the socket in place while the other turns the ratchet, I'll have to get the wrench wench out there with me
holidaychicken
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Just as a bit of an update, I did eventually use the swivel adapter and deep 19 mm socket but removed the two bolts on the cam cover holding the dip stick tube in place which just gave me a bit more access.
The timing chain tensioner looked like it had already been changed and was already the new type with the longer spring.
As a bit of additional information regarding the non return valves behind the vanos solenoids mentioned above, I changed those as well recently and although it may have made a bit if difference it hasn't cured the cold start rattle altogether and i still get a constant knock / tap when the engine is hot ( at some stage it will be vanos rebuild for me i fear) but for those wanting to change the NRVs and the seals around the vanos solenoid the parts needed are as follows -
http://www.brit-car.co.uk/product.php/124099/5497/valve_assy___non_return - non return valves -2 OFF REQUIRED LDO 000010
http://www.brit-car.co.uk/product.php/124811/0/timing_gear_cover_seal_4_4l_v8_l322_range_rover - VANOS SOLENOID SEALS 2 OFF REQUIRED LUD000010, would also be a good idea to get a couple of small 90 deg. pick tools to hook into the bolt holes for the seal to pull it over the solenoid after cleaning all the gunk off.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321169873895 - 32 mm special deep thin walled socket to remove the solenoids- although i bought a plumbers box spanner, cut the hex end off and welded to a length of tube and drilled a cross hole to drive it.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M10-X-1-M...-100mm-/291300812429?var=&hash=item43d2e1a68d - m10 x 1 metric extra fine bolt to pull out the non return valves, the 100 mm is just long enough but a bit longer would be ideal.
The job is really easy, the only slight pain is removing the large radiator pipe going to the water pump to do one side.
