Electric Conversion....I don’t get it!!

Nodge68 said:

Old hybrids were notoriously bad at battery management, so they degraded fast. A modern EV doesn't brutally abuse its batteries like that, so they last a long long time.

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Thats simply not true, my main drive has had nothing but problems with the batteries and has been on a recall and not in a position to fully charge since October - Thats a car thats just months old. The biggest problem I find, is the time it takes to charge, particularly when using the combustion engine and charging whilst driving, this is taking noticeably longer and longer). EV are unquestionably the future to some degree, but they are neither the longterm answer nor is the infrastructure even close to being ready to accommodate a fully electrified society at this time.

Landyfox said:

Thats simply not true, my main drive has had nothing but problems with the batteries and has been on a recall and not in a position to fully charge since October - Thats a car thats just months old. The biggest problem I find, is the time it takes to charge, particularly when using the combustion engine and charging whilst driving, this is taking noticeably longer and longer).

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You can't compare a modern pointless hybrid (probably a compliance vehicle anyway) to a full EV from someone like Tesla, as they are a dissimilar as wind power and solar power.

Landyfox said:

EV are unquestionably the future to some degree, but they are neither the longterm answer nor is the infrastructure even close to being ready to accommodate a fully electrified society at this time.

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I don't get this perception that there isn't enough infrastructure, or won't be in the next decade.
Or this thing where EV needs charging on a daily or nightly basis.
We don't fill out ICE cars to the brim every morning, as we go to work. We fill them when the tank gets to a set amount of fuel remaining. So why treat an EV any different. If the weekly commute is 120 miles (the UK average iirc), the just charge the EV once, either at home, or at a public charging point, if there's one local to work.

Electric really is for wealthy people to be honest. But as it push forward, probably sooner it will be way more affordable to everyone. If that happens (which will surely do), probably most of us will be switching to it. I still prefer hybrid though.

Nodge68 said:

You can't compare a modern pointless hybrid (probably a compliance vehicle anyway) to a full EV from someone like Tesla, as they are a dissimilar as wind power and solar power.

I don't get this perception that there isn't enough infrastructure, or won't be in the next decade.
Or this thing where EV needs charging on a daily or nightly basis.
We don't fill out ICE cars to the brim every morning, as we go to work. We fill them when the tank gets to a set amount of fuel remaining. So why treat an EV any different. If the weekly commute is 120 miles (the UK average iirc), the just charge the EV once, either at home, or at a public charging point, if there's one local to work.

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It is not a perception it is unfortunately fact that we do not have and are no where near having an inclusive infrastructure. Have a look around, how many electric charge points compared to regular fuel ?
Assuming you live somewhere that fitting a charge point would not be a problem go for a drive round the streets of terrace houses or flats and figure how all those drivers can charge their cars.
Or is that someone else's problem ?
We currently import electricity in times of high demand, new power stations are many years away. Maybe we could link all the redundant ICE engines into a giant daisy chain powering transformers !
Apparently the average range is now 190 miles, fine if you only drive local, charge up every couple of days, fine. Where I work the furthest person I know lives almost 80 miles away, work has a handful of charge points what if he is held up in traffic or has to divert ? It starts to look like 190 miles is not so good. How long would it take me to travel 700 miles, which I have done in a weekend ? How about taking 'your' caravan away for the summer, that journey needs careful planning.

timvega said:

Electric really is for wealthy people to be honest. But as it push forward, probably sooner it will be way more affordable to everyone. If that happens (which will surely do), probably most of us will be switching to it. I still prefer hybrid though.

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Well that's it isn't it. We are being forced into EV's without the natural progression of hybrid while infrastructure catches up.
Hydrogen or gas and similar really should be explored fully instead of going forward like lemmings.
Cars and light vehicles produce a tiny amount of Co2 compared to other polluters. Start with the real problems.

Shedload said:

It is not a perception it is unfortunately fact that we do not have and are no where near having an inclusive infrastructure. Have a look around, how many electric charge points compared to regular fuel ?
Assuming you live somewhere that fitting a charge point would not be a problem go for a drive round the streets of terrace houses or flats and figure how all those drivers can charge their cars.
Or is that someone else's problem ?
We currently import electricity in times of high demand, new power stations are many years away. Maybe we could link all the redundant ICE engines into a giant daisy chain powering transformers !
Apparently the average range is now 190 miles, fine if you only drive local, charge up every couple of days, fine. Where I work the furthest person I know lives almost 80 miles away, work has a handful of charge points what if he is held up in traffic or has to divert ? It starts to look like 190 miles is not so good. How long would it take me to travel 700 miles, which I have done in a weekend ? How about taking 'your' caravan away for the summer, that journey needs careful planning.

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Indeed, it’s not that simple. Due to rural and family commitments, I complete numerous miles each and everyday, and I assume there are many like me. I am not arguing that electric vehicles should not be the future, however I fundamentally believe that the infrastructure is 20 years plus away. In fact, I remain of the opinion that electric vehicles won’t be the future and that an adequately clean combustion engine will be developed along with Hydrogen powered vehicles. I could be wrong, but I don’t think I will be.

I hope you are right before driving becomes the preserve of the wealthy or well connected.

I don't really think any of it will affect the majority of today's drivers, it's the next generation such as my grandchildren who will be looking to buy their first car in 7 to 12 years from now. They will be the ones who will be looking at EV's as the norm. The rest of us will be keeping our old bangers until the supply of fuel starts becoming a problem and that won't be for another 20-30 years.

Col

Colthebrummie said:

I don't really think any of it will affect the majority of today's drivers, it's the next generation such as my grandchildren who will be looking to buy their first car in 7 to 12 years from now. They will be the ones who will be looking at EV's as the norm. The rest of us will be keeping our old bangers until the supply of fuel starts becoming a problem and that won't be for another 20-30 years.

Col

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I agree with this. It is funny that in the 70's we were told oil will run out in 30 years
Looks like it may finally come true in about 20 to 30 years!!

There's loads of ev infrastructure being added to the network. Has been for many years. The comparison from ev charging to petrol stations... Compare the number of ev only on the road to petrol/diesel. It is very low. There's more than enough to charge current ev's.

In years to come you can go shopping to Sainsbury's or b&q and charge there while shopping. There will be fast chargers at petrol stations. If in a terrace you can charge at home with a cable. Theres opportunity for lamp post chargers anorl. Also lots of spare electric at night. Most trips are under 5 miles so its not like peeps will need to charge daily with a full tank of wiggerlys. A 13amp plug powered charger can be used if power is restricted. The grid has been eggspanding for years to cope with the future changes in demand and desire for cleaner generation. Eggspansion is continuing. Swop n go automated battery changing is also a potential where you swop yer battery for a charged one in an automated drive through, and pay for the swop.

Thems who live in the sticks will find life a bit more difficult with ev's with lobg fistances. That's kind accepted when living there. Everything is different. Compare that to london where ev's will get rid of a lot of traffic generated gases in the air.

The ev debate has been done to death on the web. The majority of trips don't need a big vehicle and only have one occupant. Ev's are slowly coming down in price as production increases. Ability is getting betterer anorl. There will always be some with problems but on the whole they're not as bad as peeps think. They're nothing like the electric milk floats from the 80's.

My Old Landy said:

I agree with this. It is funny that in the 70's we were told oil will run out in 30 years
Looks like it may finally come true in about 20 to 30 years!!

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Or not.

I am most definitely NOT a climate change denier, unquestionably it is changing and we should actively look to improve things. But, and it’s a BUT. Should it really be at the expense of human comforts and living standards? I don’t know, I’m leaning towards it should be, but something sits uneasily with me. The planet will one day end regardless of what we do, therefore is it not our responsibility to enjoy life and benefit from the many inventions we have. I honestly don’t know. Conversely, I’m sure there will be many ingenious steps forward with electric. I for one will miss the conventional internal combustion engines especially the smell.

You could argue human comfort pushed past what's reasonable long ago. We create a lot of waste because of it. On the go coffee and fast food... Flying round the world to test drive life in another country... Consumerism and greed have certainly become more popular over the years. Compare that to those less fortunate who don't have access to clean drinking water.

Hippo said:

You could argue human comfort pushed past what's reasonable long ago. We create a lot of waste because of it. On the go coffee and fast food... Flying round the world to test drive life in another country... Consumerism and greed have certainly become more popular over the years. Compare that to those less fortunate who don't have access to clean drinking water.

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I know, I agree and don’t need any persuasion of that position. But I can also appreciate the argument that all of those things you mentioned improve ‘something’ and therefore is it right to ask for the regression of them to prolong the undetermined life span of the planet. Effectively, do we exist and refrain from many comforts in the hope we are able to extend the planets lifetime. Or, to we live to the full and consume everything we enjoy to get the most out of our time on this earth. Again, I don’t know and can appreciate both sides of the argument. I understand we often hear of those with awful terminal illnesses do all manner of things to improve their time left, often at the expense of others. I get that. I don’t know what the answer is.

When the chancellor starts taxing them like ICE I imagine the love for EV will be on the same level as ICE..

SMMT even want's VAT dropped on EVs to make them more affordable..

Hippo said:

You could argue human comfort pushed past what's reasonable long ago. We create a lot of waste because of it. On the go coffee and fast food... Flying round the world to test drive life in another country... Consumerism and greed have certainly become more popular over the years. Compare that to those less fortunate who don't have access to clean drinking water.

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The reason some don't have access to clean water is that they are stupid and lazy.

Col

Henry_b said:

SMMT even want's VAT dropped on EVs to make them more affordable..

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The sooner the better IMO.

Although I'll be keeping my diesel FL2 for as long as I can, although only as a second vehicle, once I can afford a decent EV.

Colthebrummie said:

The reason some don't have access to clean water is that they are stupid and lazy.

Col

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That's not strictly true. The reasons are far more complicated and much darker than those affected being lazy or stupid.

Colthebrummie said:

The reason some don't have access to clean water is that they are stupid and lazy.

Col

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Only if yer postcode starts with a B followed by a number.

Hippo mentions the possibility of 'drive thru' rapid battery change'. If we are going to go full electric, presumably we can find that electric, then that type of system is our only hope. But, like most thing with the EV industry that is not likely in the short term.
Although there are only a few battery manufacturers the many car makers each have their own system of installation. And currently the change time is around two hours. We do need a standardised battery and fitting system so the rapid change can become reality.

I think the changes that are coming are more complex. Firstly the motor industry are looking at the age of new car buyers and think that the next generation will not buy cars. They will lease, join car shares schemes, or use Uber,. This means cars do not need to appeal to private buyers. Tesla is already going this way, no annual model updates, very bland styling and they shifted 1,000,000 last year. EVs will be come white goods.
Look at new car ads and se if you can find a mass market car that advertises: how many cylinders, how many valves, where the cam is, what type of suspension it has, cost of s service.
Now look and see if you can find out how connected it is, facebook etc, how many speakers is has, how much it costs per month
Secondly there will be 2 really big spits - town vs country and 1st world vs rest. All our EV/hydrid debate is a town / 1st world issue. So far as I can tell no one knows how this will play out. The industry are working on the assumption that in a 1st world country all short journeys will be EV / electric bike / EV Uber / self driving (don't start me..) and all long ones by electric train. Once you stop owning cars this model works well. You drive your Tesla to the station, some one else drives it around your town, you pick one up where you are going and drive it to your meeting where it charges. Doesn't work in the countryside and it really won't help an African famer with his tractor.
We could be entering the "Post car ownership age", no driveways or garages, most living in flats, a car delivered (driverless?) on an app when you need it. Those of us who grew up, like our parents, wanting to own a car, will be seen as dinosaurs.
When these changes come I think they will come quickly, there will be a point when driving an ICE car in a city will be like drunk driving and it will simply stop.
Will city dwellers visit the countryside and be outraged to see "yokels" driving diesels? Will it become "fox hunting 2"? Will we visit Africa to look at farmers using diesel tractors and say to our grandchildren "can you believe we used to do that, how quaint?"
I don't think anyone has a clue, buckle up for bumpy ride!.
PS We have masses of oil, that's my industry, we have about 200 years at least. The industry expect to leave most of it behind. There is no reasonable way to burn the remaining oil and not create a huge climate problem. "Peak oil" will be peak acceptability not peak reserves. "The stone age did not end because they ran out of stone."