D1 300TDi - remove ABS thoughts?

When I got my Disco, the ABS had been disabled, presumably because of a fault. However, I'm a bit uncomfortable that the ABS pump is still in place, so really should be working or completely removed. So, as I'm going through fixing stuff, I'm wondering if I should bite the bullet, and try to restore it, or properly remove it. ABS is something beyond my skills, but willing to learn. Also concerned how much fixing it would cost.

Really torn on this, so looking for opinions on the best way to go...

I imagine if you remove it you won't get insurance and if you have an accident where someone is hurt you will most likely end up in prison.
Probably best to fix it I would think.
Same with it not working.

Only the 5 door XS and the ES had ABS as standard, with all the rest it was a customer option for a new vehicle, so it’s possible some D1s don't have ABS.

Get a quote for repair as it could be something simple.

My bother removed his after endless trouble which his mechanic couldn't fix. Wouldn't worry about the insurance aspect, much safer without an intermittent Abs problem, and as said, only fitted to certain models.... and Japanese imports.

Kenbo said:

My bother removed his after endless trouble which his mechanic couldn't fix. Wouldn't worry about the insurance aspect, much safer without an intermittent Abs problem, and as said, only fitted to certain models.... and Japanese imports.

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That's fine but technically he won't be insured if he doesn't tell them that a factory fitted safety system has been removed. Regardless of getting insurance in the event of a fatal accident he will be in deep dodo.
It doesn't matter to me and back in the day I may well have removed it myself. it's a bit like removing or disabling airbags, fine until it goes wrong.
It would be wise to try and fix it.

Anaconda said:

That's fine but technically he won't be insured if he doesn't tell them that a factory fitted safety system has been removed. Regardless of getting insurance in the event of a fatal accident he will be in deep dodo.
It doesn't matter to me and back in the day I may well have removed it myself. it's a bit like removing or disabling airbags, fine until it goes wrong.
It would be wise to try and fix it.

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Thanks for the comments. I agree insurance could be an issue, but if declared should be legal so not sure any further problem at the point with fatal accidents/dodo

You would need to find out which components are different, master cylinder, brake calipers, brake booster etc. may all have different versions for ABS/Non-ABS vehicles. It's not something I'd do personally and you may find it's uninsurable. It won't just be joining some brake pipes together...

I am pretty fussy about insurance and worked in the industry for over 20 years. If you tell an underwriter you've removed a feature which should enhance safety that will be noted, and possibly the company will decline to cover you. In the case I mentioned it was a practical solution, the pedal would intermittently go hard without warning, light would come on at the same time, but he had a few close shaves. Unless there are extenuating circumstances, no claims inspector is going to check individual spec on an older vehicle providing it is deemed to be roadworthy and preferably holds a current MOT. Not ideal, but the alternatives are: spend an unknown amount to try and repair, remove the system, or scrap the vehicle. As I recall, removal was just making up new pipes, no booster or other ststems.

Extenuating circumstances, such as injuring or killing a third party in conditions where a fully functioning braking system should or could have prevented it? They were pretty thorough looking into the defender that ended up in a ditch in Lincolnshire. It's not always a claims inspector but a Vehicle Inspection Engineer (with a capital 'E') working on behalf of the Police and Coroner, where the level of detail is determined by more than a cursory glance to get their fee before moving on to the next one.

Jalfrezi said:

Thanks for the comments. I agree insurance could be an issue, but if declared should be legal so not sure any further problem at the point with fatal accidents/dodo

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Doubt it, many people have insurance on non legal cars.
Or rather they convince themselves they have insurance until it all goes wrong.
As mentioned it won't be the insurance company who inspects the vehicle, it will be the police. If they find a problem your insurance is void, that will prove rather costly to you.
Or on the bright side you may never have an accident.

Anaconda said:

Doubt it, many people have insurance on non legal cars.
Or rather they convince themselves they have insurance until it all goes wrong.

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Exactly this. Having insurance doesn't make it legal, nor is the insurer in a position to judge if it is or isn't legal. It just means you're paying insurance premiums to 'tick a box', you'd never be able to make a claim or have a reasonable expectation they'd protect you from claims in the event you are deemed to be 'at fault' for having a braking system not functioning as intended. I take the point that there are non-ABS versions of the vehicle, yours isn't one of them and the VIN will always indicate that it should have functioning ABS.

I'm also against bastardising vehicles by removing factory fitted systems so if we go back to where this thread started

Jalfrezi said:

the ABS had been disabled, presumably because of a fault. However, I'm a bit uncomfortable that the ABS pump is still in place, so really should be working or completely removed.

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First of all it would be good to explain how the ABS was "disabled" as it's disabled by default by the ECU when a system fault is present while the mechanical/hydraulical braking system keeps working normally... the reason that the pump is still in place is cos the brakes would not work without it regardless of the ABS function as the hydraulic system goes through it and splits the primary and secondary circuits to the calipers so going to a non-ABS setup implies to modify the hydraulic system accordingly with the proper non-ABS pressure valve(C), different pipes and splitter for rear, you can't just connect pipes all around just like that on a ABS vehicle to make it non ABS unless you expose yourself and others to a high risk, IMO to botch up things in this area is out of discussion regardless of insurance or legal issues which where already discussed... i attach both system's layouts to see the difference

The D1's ABS system is not very complicated and IMO it's cheaper to fix than converting it CORRECTLY to non ABS so better describe what's wrong with it and i'll try to help, it's possible to be just a wheel speed sensor or something simple

@sierrafery Thanks for your help. And I'm now pretty convinced to get it fixed up properly now.

To be honest, I don't know. I guess the previous owner removed the ABS bulb, as this doesn't light on power on. I can of course, check this and replace the bulb if thats the case. I had also found a vacuum line and cable plug loose by the pump, which I guessed was something ABS related, but pretty sure that's just for the removed EGR now.

I guess there is an ECU for the ABS, but not sure where, any other components apart from the wheel sensors and pump? I think I need to do a blink test, to see if I get codes, but not sure where to do this.

Yes, the best would be to check if the warning light is not blanked with tape or something and once restored you can go further, there is a plip test for the fault codes which needs the warning lamp to work so a diagnostic tool is not compulsory... as i said the system is quite simple, it's an ECU, the pump(actually modulator) and abs sensors... what year is the vehicle?

It's a 97 XS, 300tdi

Ok, if you can bring back the warning lamp to life i'll tell you what to do next, untill then be advised that the vehicle works exactly like a non-ABS one brake wise just that without the warning lamp's self test it might not pass a MOT

Jalfrezi said:

Thanks for the comments. I agree insurance could be an issue, but if declared should be legal so not sure any further problem at the point with fatal accidents/dodo

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Exactly, if the insurance company is happy to quote for D1 vehicles that are all have the same engines and performance for the given model, the only difference being just options either chosen by owner or standard fitting from the factory on the high end models and nothing to improve vehicle performance.

Anyway all that ABS does is stop the wheels locking up on some surfaces and basically enabling the vehicle to steer around obstacle's.
I found my non ABS RR great fun with wheels locked in the snow and sliding towards a vehicle in front, t
Even with my ABS D1 the only time I know its working is in winter when I do brake test on a frost or snow covered road.
Even then, ABS isn’t full proof and in some winter conditions the ABS doesn’t work at all, so the vehicle slides unstoppable, off road conditions are similar I understand. So then do the insurance companies now think the vehicle is unsafe?

discool said:

Exactly, if the insurance company is happy to quote for D1 vehicles that are all have the same engines and performance for the given model, the only difference being just options either chosen by owner or standard fitting from the factory on the high end models and nothing to improve vehicle performance.

Anyway all that ABS does is stop the wheels locking up on some surfaces and basically enabling the vehicle to steer around obstacle's.
I found my non ABS RR great fun with wheels locked in the snow and sliding towards a vehicle in front, t
Even with my ABS D1 the only time I know its working is in winter when I do brake test on a frost or snow covered road.
Even then, ABS isn’t full proof and in some winter conditions the ABS doesn’t work at all, so the vehicle slides unstoppable, off road conditions are similar I understand. So then do the insurance companies now think the vehicle is unsafe?

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I think we all know that sometimes ABS can be a pain in the snow.
At the end of the day you could drive your whole life and never even have any use for it, I don't even have it on any of my cars.
Fact is in this day and age it would be sensible to fix it.
I am pretty sure every single person on this forum would be up in arms if their family member was injured by someone who knowingly bypassed their ABS system.

on my D1 the ABS light eventually died after being on for many many years - so maybe the globe hasn't been removed

Having ages ago done a skid pan course and never needed to worry since, I remain unconvinced that a sensible driver really needs ABS, and as some have said about driving in snow, there are times when ABS actually lengthens braking distance.
As with so many things, they improve the driving and safety of average to poor drivers, but .....
As with so many of my age, I started driving in cars with very poor brakes, like Minis where nothing happened at all unless I pumped them!