best front dislocation setup???

hi all

well as youve probably guessed id like some upto date answers or ideas about this subject please

my vehicle is a 300 d1 with 2" lift and +5 shocks on standard fitment with +2" turrets, springs currently retained from the bottom, castor corrected arms with standard type bushes (not jonny jointed or owt). it has bump stops, brakes lines and the panhard rod locking out is not going to be an issue.

my main reason for asking about this is that ive searched and cant really find wot im looking for and a couple of people have said that some types of relocators take chunks out of shockers when working, and obviously id like to avoid this if possible.

so any info, ideas or experiences would really be appriciated

thanks in advance

towsey

What are you trying the achieve?

At the end of the day you will only have as much movement up and down as the radius arm will allow. You can test this by pulling the shock and spring and seeing how much movement there is.

If you have lots of travel. Then you need a shock to cater for this travel.

For the spring. Well it will only dislocate if you have enough travel to exceed the uncompressed length of the spring. Springs come in all manner of lengths. Longer springs will need more travel before the dislocate.

HD springs. Like those often used for lifts may not compress very well. Which may limit the down travel on the opposite wheel.

LR springs vary from about 14” to 17” in length. While I’m sure some people manage to get the front dislocating. I suspect many setups simply don’t have the travel. The only dislocating systems I’ve seen retain the spring at the bottom and put the relocation cone at the top. If you were to relocate to shock then you could reverse this and retain at the top instead.

If you really want more flex on the front end. Then you will need to look at generating more movement from the radius arm, either at one end or both. There are a number of ways to achieve this, at various price points and various pros and cons to each setup.

cheers for the reply

well at the mo its on light duty springs (doesnt carry all that much weight very often) and as said standard fitment correction arms for now. to be honest for now im just trying to get it to be a good all rounder or at least drive acceptably but if i find it needs things like other arms etc then im happy to address this. thing is its not an all out off roader so wont spend that much time going for big articulation but i just want it to be able to work ok when the need arises. if the front doesnt dislocate then im not going to chase it really and the back will be fine on the 4xforce rear arms and again +5's, but with the spring retained at the top which i think is a nice move.
reason for this thread is that ive been told that im likely to have a catching issue but i just wondered how true it was really and do i do something about it while the bolts all stand a chance of coming undone ok

towsey

towsey956 said:

cheers for the reply

well at the mo its on light duty springs (doesnt carry all that much weight very often) and as said standard fitment correction arms for now. to be honest for now im just trying to get it to be a good all rounder or at least drive acceptably but if i find it needs things like other arms etc then im happy to address this. thing is its not an all out off roader so wont spend that much time going for big articulation but i just want it to be able to work ok when the need arises. if the front doesnt dislocate then im not going to chase it really and the back will be fine on the 4xforce rear arms and again +5's, but with the spring retained at the top which i think is a nice move.
reason for this thread is that ive been told that im likely to have a catching issue but i just wondered how true it was really and do i do something about it while the bolts all stand a chance of coming undone ok

towsey

Click to expand...

wouldnt diff lockers be a better idea, a wheel with no weight on it serves no purpose

I've found that until the going gets extremely extreme, lots of front end articulation doesn't actually help! Although I have +5 shocks and +2" springs at the back, the fronts are 'only' +2 shocks and springs. The back springs held at the chassis end and relocate on the axle .. far simpler and easier to line up than the usual held on the axle and relocate at the top, and allow full articulation.

When I let it articulate at the front, to try it with +5's, and added dis/relocation it introduced a lot of changes needed to make it work properly .. Bump steer, prop bind, lots of noise and felt very weird at times. I know people who run +5's all round and they work for them, or they don't admit the faults! But for me it was so much easier going back to +2's and no to minor dislocation that it wasn't worth the effort.

As @jamesmartin says, a diff locker does way more than dislocation ever will ..

If I were competing it'd be different .. way different ..

Paul D said:

I've found that until the going gets extremely extreme, lots of front end articulation doesn't actually help! Although I have +5 shocks and +2" springs at the back, the fronts are 'only' +2 shocks and springs. The back springs held at the chassis end and relocate on the axle .. far simpler and easier to line up than the usual held on the axle and relocate at the top, and allow full articulation.

When I let it articulate at the front, to try it with +5's, and added dis/relocation it introduced a lot of changes needed to make it work properly .. Bump steer, prop bind, lots of noise and felt very weird at times. I know people who run +5's all round and they work for them, or they don't admit the faults! But for me it was so much easier going back to +2's and no to minor dislocation that it wasn't worth the effort.

As @jamesmartin says, a diff locker does way more than dislocation ever will ..

If I were competing it'd be different .. way different ..

Click to expand...

I only ever had dislocation cones on the rear axle, never had a front spring come out.
And the locking axles are definitely the way to go, they will drag it over most things, the suspension can do what it wants.

jamesmartin said:

wouldnt diff lockers be a better idea, a wheel with no weight on it serves no purpose

Click to expand...

Lockers cost a lot more. On the front you might be looking at £1000+ for a locker setup.

And while lockers keep the wheels spinning. They don’t help stability. Which keeping wheels on the ground does do. How effective dislocating springs are is up for debate. But there is more to it than just the weight.

Paul D said:

I've found that until the going gets extremely extreme, lots of front end articulation doesn't actually help! Although I have +5 shocks and +2" springs at the back, the fronts are 'only' +2 shocks and springs. The back springs held at the chassis end and relocate on the axle .. far simpler and easier to line up than the usual held on the axle and relocate at the top, and allow full articulation.

When I let it articulate at the front, to try it with +5's, and added dis/relocation it introduced a lot of changes needed to make it work properly .. Bump steer, prop bind, lots of noise and felt very weird at times. I know people who run +5's all round and they work for them, or they don't admit the faults! But for me it was so much easier going back to +2's and no to minor dislocation that it wasn't worth the effort.

As @jamesmartin says, a diff locker does way more than dislocation ever will ..

If I were competing it'd be different .. way different ..

Click to expand...

Balanced suspension front and rear is arguably the goal. Makes the Vehcile feel nicer and more stable on uneven terrain.

The radius arms can make it more difficult to promote front end flex.

towsey956 said:

cheers for the reply

well at the mo its on light duty springs (doesnt carry all that much weight very often) and as said standard fitment correction arms for now. to be honest for now im just trying to get it to be a good all rounder or at least drive acceptably but if i find it needs things like other arms etc then im happy to address this. thing is its not an all out off roader so wont spend that much time going for big articulation but i just want it to be able to work ok when the need arises. if the front doesnt dislocate then im not going to chase it really and the back will be fine on the 4xforce rear arms and again +5's, but with the spring retained at the top which i think is a nice move.
reason for this thread is that ive been told that im likely to have a catching issue but i just wondered how true it was really and do i do something about it while the bolts all stand a chance of coming undone ok

towsey

Click to expand...

I would maybe look at an Ashcroft ATB diff. If you fit it in the rear with some HD shafts it’ll cost you about £700+VAT. Less if you stick with stock half shafts (assuming you are running 24 spline).

Pricy but should serve you well off road and also benefits on road.

As for front end flex. I’d look at promoting the movement first. Then worry about the shocks and if it dislocates.

This is mine. Only a mild setup due to the competition regs I have to adhere too. These are long springs. But give about standard ride height.

Stock radius arms. +2 shocks. Also running stock geometry rear arms which are straight, not cranked.

It’s not the most travel ever and wouldn’t likely win a twist off on an RTI ramp. But real world off road use it is nicely balanced and keeps its wheels on the ground quite well.

300bhp/ton said:

This is mine. Only a mild setup due to the competition regs I have to adhere too. These are long springs. But give about standard ride height.
Stock radius arms. +2 shocks. Also running stock geometry rear arms which are straight, not cranked.
It’s not the most travel ever and wouldn’t likely win a twist off on an RTI ramp. But real world off road use it is nicely balanced and keeps its wheels on the ground quite well.

Click to expand...

That's a great point .. longer softer springs work way better than, for instance, the usual Yellow +2" HD springs when off-road .. depending what you carry. If mine were purely a comp I'd be the same, long and soft .. I carry loads of spares, camping equipment, often two of us and a hefty winch .. hence Bearmach Medium +2 springs all round. Not as soft as I like, but I need the spring size for the weight I carry. I've tried loads from comedy +3" VHD springs to soft long and what I have now is a compromise between ride height, load carrying, greenlane ability and road holding!!! Always a compromise for a Green Laner ..

Horses for courses ..

Id just like to reiterate looking at the diffs if you want the vehicle to perform well as an everydayer!

No need to uprate the half shafts, I've got an Ashcroft atb in the rear, and for what I do (green lanes, towing on grass/forest and rough as hell farm and forestry tracks) its the absolute business. Id say I greenlane 2 weekends a month if I can, and the Landy is my work vehicle to. I've got standard height springs, hd on rear and softest I can find upfront. I run +2" shocks all round, an spring relocaters on the rear. Pretty good, and cheap, most importantly does everything I need I to, and performs faultlessly on the road!

Also, when dollar allows, ill fit another Ashcroft atb in the front diff, then it really will be awesome!

Gottschalk said:

Also, when dollar allows, ill fit another Ashcroft atb in the front diff, then it really will be awesome!

Click to expand...

They really are rather good. My Uncle runs front and rear ATB’s in one of his 90’s. Very capable considering the suspension is stock and has a heavy winch and bumper. That said in the same spot my Land Rover is photographed above. He broke a front CV driving through the axle twister only last Saturday.

Only a stock CV though. The Ashcroft HD ones are eye wateringly expensive.

Thanks very much for all that guys, much confirmation on wot I thought

I absolutely agree with all that you all say. After driving different 'levels' of vehicle over the same ground I have come to the conclusion that lockers are awesome and so is stability! But then that's no secret or rocket science. This vehicle won't be an all out off roader and when off road it will also spend most of it's time on fairly rough rutted or virgin farmland and woodland. My trying to settle for a 'middle of the road' list of mods is from learning from experience round my area that a +2 setup is good for a lot of things but doesn't have the stability of an extreme setup, and an extreme setup is much more stable but does not guarantee traction. Likewise lockers are good for traction but not so good for stability or ground clearance, the latter being an issue for most of us where we go. Having said that I don't think I will be needing an extreme travel 4 link system with f&r arb's (would be nice tho!) for wot I will be doing
Result...2" lift with +5's and possibly a rear locker if needs be at a later date. I understand the compromise theory and I don't want to waste time and money doing things just for the sake of it cos its 'cool'
So back to my original reason for this thread...just wondering about people's preferred front discloation setup, and is anyone running the same setup as me and if so does it even dislocate. One person I know is running the same setup and his front end dislocates but is no real bother, another used to run the same setup but had trouble which is why we're here

Thanks again

Towsey

300bhp/ton said:

They really are rather good. My Uncle runs front and rear ATB’s in one of his 90’s. Very capable considering the suspension is stock and has a heavy winch and bumper. That said in the same spot my Land Rover is photographed above. He broke a front CV driving through the axle twister only last Saturday.

Only a stock CV though. The Ashcroft HD ones are eye wateringly expensive.

Click to expand...

New lockers of all species are quite expensive, but there are often second hand ones available, and they are fairly simple to recondition if you can get the parts, and have simple workshop facilities. A number of people have done this, including @Paul D , who has posted pics of his restored ARB.

towsey956 said:

So back to my original reason for this thread...just wondering about people's preferred front discloation setup, and is anyone running the same setup as me and if so does it even dislocate. One person I know is running the same setup and his front end dislocates but is no real bother, another used to run the same setup but had trouble which is why we're here

Click to expand...

I'd just use the 'standard' front dislocation cans, hanging down from the turret. The front on standard geometry suspension doesn't dislocate far, and it's also constrained by the shock, so notalot needs to be done ..

Like these ..

Thanks for that

Yeah the mechanical side isn't a worry but I don't know when I will be wanting one. I'd like a fit and forget really party cos they are cheaper but also so there is no need to have the Compressor etc in the car. I'm not massively up on lockers but if poss I would go for one that is open until needs to be locked rather than one that only unlocks on tight turns with good grip, mainly cos it will spend a lot of time on the road and the missus might use it in the snow.

Those cones are exactly wot I was thinking of...well to be honest I did think of chopping and fabbing the old standard turrets down and putting them in upside down but I don't know if this has been done before???...
Yes my arms for now are 3 degree correction on standard bushes and plus 5 shocks, but the Panhard rod won't be locking out so no issue there

Thanks

Towsey

As said earlier. I’ve only seen one type of dislocation cones for the front. Retain spring at the bottom and dislocate from the top. Gwyn Lewis does shock towers with this built in, else they just bolt on to where the retaining ring is.

If you want to dislocate from the bottom you will probably have to look at relocating the shock so it isn’t inside the spring. There are kits for this from people like RAC Parts.

As for diffs. You probably don’t want lockers. The Ashcroft ATB I mentioned earlier is a type of limited slip diff. And requires no user intervention and no compressor. It will also work well and bring benefits on road as well as road.

towsey956 said:

Those cones are exactly wot I was thinking of...well to be honest I did think of chopping and fabbing the old standard turrets down and putting them in upside down but I don't know if this has been done before???...

Click to expand...

Good idea, can't believe I ain't thought about that before so might look at that myself .. though with only +2 shocks on the front mine don't dislocate 'yet' ..

Glad to be of service ha, probably won't work tho or it would be all over the place! I am going to have a look when I get chance tho

Yeah I've used a kit that had the shock on different mounts but still inside the spring which was retained at the top, that setup all worked really well, it was a complete 4xforce kit, but too extreme for this vehicle. I've also had dealings with a different make externally mounted shocker setup and steering lock was massively effected for the worse so was soon removed

I remember watching a video on YouTube a while ago and a bloke had lockers in his I think series 3 but not sure, and he said it was basically an open diff till he dabbed the brakes and they kicked in. He had put it against a muddy bank it would never climb then set the wheels off moving and got out to video it. I can't remember if they were trutracs?

Towsey