Battery (size) question

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PacMan

Guest
Hi all, and sorry for jumping in with a question to begin with.

I have a 1997 Defender 90 tdi, now with 80,000 miles, which wouldn't
start this morning. Diagnosis: need a new battery, since I know this
one's at least 5 years old.

Halfreaud's didn't have the recommended one in stock, and when I take
the old one out to connect to my bike's Optimate overnight (tell you
if it works tomorrow), it looks like the only constraint on battery
model is: will it fit under that front seat compartment?

Any recommendations, advice, or should I just go out armed with a tape
measure, and buy the biggest ampere hourage(?) battery I can find?
--
PacMan
"When a man's best friend is his dog,
that dog has a problem" - Edward Abbey
 
PacMan wrote:

> Hi all, and sorry for jumping in with a question to begin with.
>
> I have a 1997 Defender 90 tdi, now with 80,000 miles, which wouldn't
> start this morning. Diagnosis: need a new battery, since I know this
> one's at least 5 years old.
>
> Halfreaud's didn't have the recommended one in stock, and when I take
> the old one out to connect to my bike's Optimate overnight (tell you
> if it works tomorrow), it looks like the only constraint on battery
> model is: will it fit under that front seat compartment?
>
> Any recommendations, advice, or should I just go out armed with a tape
> measure, and buy the biggest ampere hourage(?) battery I can find?

Let's get the religious bit out of the way first :mad:)

Get a couple of Optima Red Top and gang them in parallel!

P.
 
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:11:52 +0000, PacMan <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Any recommendations, advice, or should I just go out armed with a tape
>measure, and buy the biggest ampere hourage(?) battery I can find?

Basically, yes. You're looking at getting something cheap - if you
have any sense (speaking as someone who spends shedloads on Optimas
and other Gel batteries) as it's for running the car only - yes?
(Not lots of other stuff like fridge etc., which will need the deep
cycle properties of Gel and Optima type batteries)

If it'll fit, check the rating for CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) against
the one you're taking to the recycle centre. Give or take 5 to 10
each way isn't going to make a great deal of difference. For a D90,
get a standard Discovery 200/300Tdi battery.


--
"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one
of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being
increasingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs
In memory of Brian {Hamilton Kelly} who logged off 15th September 2005
 
you need a 590 battery if the positive connector is on the left as you
look at front of battery , with terminals facing you at the front of
battery .
..
or you need a 588 if the positive is on the right as you look at front
of battery .

these are 90ah batteries , ie the tractor type battery with handles

 

"PacMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi all, and sorry for jumping in with a question to begin with.
>
> I have a 1997 Defender 90 tdi, now with 80,000 miles, which wouldn't
> start this morning. Diagnosis: need a new battery, since I know this
> one's at least 5 years old.
>
> Halfreaud's didn't have the recommended one in stock, and when I take
> the old one out to connect to my bike's Optimate overnight (tell you
> if it works tomorrow), it looks like the only constraint on battery
> model is: will it fit under that front seat compartment?
>
> Any recommendations, advice, or should I just go out armed with a tape
> measure, and buy the biggest ampere hourage(?) battery I can find?


I would use the commonly available, powerful and relatively cheap type 643.
These are bought by factors by the pallet load so they are excellent value
for money and were standard fitment in hard[er] to start indirect injection
Land Rover's as well as many old tractors fitted with 4litre Perkins and
such.

I do believe that LR has despecced their batteries since the arrival of the
TDi and now probably recommend the 089/4 which has about 590CCA and 72Ah
compared with the [probably] cheaper and superior 643 which has 700cca and
95Ah.
Rest assured that the 643 fits easily into my LR under the passenger seat
and was the size originally supplied on all series and 90's and 110's.

Huw


 
It was round about Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:04:50 +0000,, when the famed
Mother of the dreaded Nope - none at all, you should see my desk....
was struck by a sudden insight:

>On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:11:52 +0000, PacMan <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>Any recommendations, advice, or should I just go out armed with a tape
>>measure, and buy the biggest ampere hourage(?) battery I can find?
>
>Basically, yes. You're looking at getting something cheap - if you
>have any sense (speaking as someone who spends shedloads on Optimas
>and other Gel batteries) as it's for running the car only - yes?
>(Not lots of other stuff like fridge etc., which will need the deep
>cycle properties of Gel and Optima type batteries)

That's right, it's just to start and run. It tows a horse trailer
roughly twice per week, but that's only another 20W regularly (2 rear
lights, 2 front/side).
>
>If it'll fit, check the rating for CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) against
>the one you're taking to the recycle centre. Give or take 5 to 10
>each way isn't going to make a great deal of difference. For a D90,
>get a standard Discovery 200/300Tdi battery.

TYVM :)
--
PacMan
"Laugh, and the world laughs with you,
snore and you sleep alone"
- Anthony Burgess
 
It was round about Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:41:27 -0000,, when the famed
"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> of the dreaded was struck by a
sudden insight:

[..]
>I do believe that LR has despecced their batteries since the arrival of the
>TDi and now probably recommend the 089/4 which has about 590CCA and 72Ah
>compared with the [probably] cheaper and superior 643 which has 700cca and
>95Ah.

Hmm. I'll check what's on offer tomorrow.

>Rest assured that the 643 fits easily into my LR under the passenger seat
>and was the size originally supplied on all series and 90's and 110's.

Thanks very much: appreciated.
--
PacMan
"I've seen a look in dogs' eyes, a quickly vanishing
look of amazed contempt, and I am convinced that
basically dogs think humans are nuts."
- John Steinbeck
 
It was round about 19 Nov 2005 12:27:25 -0800,, when the famed m0bcg
of the dreaded http://groups.google.com was struck by a sudden
insight:

>you need a 590 battery if the positive connector is on the left as you
>look at front of battery , with terminals facing you at the front of
>battery .

Yep, positive on the left as described.

>.
> or you need a 588 if the positive is on the right as you look at front
>of battery .
>
>these are 90ah batteries , ie the tractor type battery with handles

This old one doesn't have handles, but looking at it, I'm not
convinced it was an original fitment.
--
PacMan
"When a man's best friend is his dog,
that dog has a problem" - Edward Abbey
 
In article <[email protected]>, Huw
<hedydd@[nospam].invalid> writes
>
>"PacMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Hi all, and sorry for jumping in with a question to begin with.
>>
>> I have a 1997 Defender 90 tdi, now with 80,000 miles, which wouldn't
>> start this morning. Diagnosis: need a new battery, since I know this
>> one's at least 5 years old.
>>
>> Halfreaud's didn't have the recommended one in stock, and when I take
>> the old one out to connect to my bike's Optimate overnight (tell you
>> if it works tomorrow), it looks like the only constraint on battery
>> model is: will it fit under that front seat compartment?
>>
>> Any recommendations, advice, or should I just go out armed with a tape
>> measure, and buy the biggest ampere hourage(?) battery I can find?
>
>
>I would use the commonly available, powerful and relatively cheap type 643.
>These are bought by factors by the pallet load so they are excellent value
>for money and were standard fitment in hard[er] to start indirect injection
>Land Rover's as well as many old tractors fitted with 4litre Perkins and
>such.
>
>I do believe that LR has despecced their batteries since the arrival of the
>TDi and now probably recommend the 089/4 which has about 590CCA and 72Ah
>compared with the [probably] cheaper and superior 643 which has 700cca and
>95Ah.
>Rest assured that the 643 fits easily into my LR under the passenger seat
>and was the size originally supplied on all series and 90's and 110's.

Seconded, with two other comments:

It's worth keeping the battery warm-ish - I use laminate floor underlay
(the sort that comes on a roll) under mine, and today am putting
bubble-wrap round it and on top (first serious cold night was last
night). Don't laugh: if the vehicle is likely to get really cold, you
could consider a hot water bottle put next to the battery overnight (not
boiling, obviously), just to keep the temp decent for the morning.

I've a retired electrical engineer friend who's also a Landy enthusiast,
who reckons that heating the glow plugs twice on cold mornings then
counting to five before turning the engine over works well - the high
glowplug current warms the battery up before it has to deliver the
really high cranking current. It certainly seems to help.

Your Optimate won't rejuvenate it, but it's a good idea nonetheless on a
good battery. I keep a small charger (nominally 8-amp, but really nearer
2 as the diodes are packing up) handy, with some long leads wired to it.
They'll fit under the garage door nicely, so that I can keep it charging
overnight (vehicle won't fit in). This does two things: keeps the
battery chemically in fettle by keeping it well topped-up, and the
charging action adds a tiny amount of heat (see above).

One final thing - electrolyte loss will be worse in cold weather as the
air can get much drier (when warmed). It's worth checking the levels at
least once during the winter in case. If one or two cells are noticeably
lower than the rest, the battery's probably on the way out - a
hygrometer will tell you most accurately. If they're all low, you should
charge it gently after you top up with de-ionized water.

HTH.

Regards,

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/
 
On or around Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:04:50 +0000, Mother <"@ {mother}
@"@101fc.net> enlightened us thusly:

>On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:11:52 +0000, PacMan <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>Any recommendations, advice, or should I just go out armed with a tape
>>measure, and buy the biggest ampere hourage(?) battery I can find?
>
>Basically, yes. You're looking at getting something cheap - if you
>have any sense (speaking as someone who spends shedloads on Optimas
>and other Gel batteries) as it's for running the car only - yes?
>(Not lots of other stuff like fridge etc., which will need the deep
>cycle properties of Gel and Optima type batteries)
>
>If it'll fit, check the rating for CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) against
>the one you're taking to the recycle centre. Give or take 5 to 10
>each way isn't going to make a great deal of difference. For a D90,
>get a standard Discovery 200/300Tdi battery.

I'd get a 643 or 644 "small commercial" battery - agricultural places are
good, as they sell 'em for tractors.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic
face by frightening people in the street.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
On or around Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:41:27 -0000, "Huw"
<hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

>
>"PacMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Hi all, and sorry for jumping in with a question to begin with.
>>
>> I have a 1997 Defender 90 tdi, now with 80,000 miles, which wouldn't
>> start this morning. Diagnosis: need a new battery, since I know this
>> one's at least 5 years old.
>>
>> Halfreaud's didn't have the recommended one in stock, and when I take
>> the old one out to connect to my bike's Optimate overnight (tell you
>> if it works tomorrow), it looks like the only constraint on battery
>> model is: will it fit under that front seat compartment?
>>
>> Any recommendations, advice, or should I just go out armed with a tape
>> measure, and buy the biggest ampere hourage(?) battery I can find?
>
>
>I would use the commonly available, powerful and relatively cheap type 643.
>These are bought by factors by the pallet load so they are excellent value
>for money and were standard fitment in hard[er] to start indirect injection
>Land Rover's as well as many old tractors fitted with 4litre Perkins and
>such.
>
>I do believe that LR has despecced their batteries since the arrival of the
>TDi and now probably recommend the 089/4 which has about 590CCA and 72Ah
>compared with the [probably] cheaper and superior 643 which has 700cca and
>95Ah.
>Rest assured that the 643 fits easily into my LR under the passenger seat
>and was the size originally supplied on all series and 90's and 110's.

and it'll fit in a 300 TDi disco with minimal attention to the battery
clamp.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic
face by frightening people in the street.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
On Sunday, in article
<[email protected]>
[email protected] "SpamTrapSeeSig" wrote:

> One final thing - electrolyte loss will be worse in cold weather as the
> air can get much drier (when warmed). It's worth checking the levels at
> least once during the winter in case. If one or two cells are noticeably
> lower than the rest, the battery's probably on the way out - a
> hygrometer will tell you most accurately. If they're all low, you should
> charge it gently after you top up with de-ionized water.

It's been my experience that most ordinary battery chargers will take a
couple of days, ammeter needle barely off the stop, to bring the
specific gravity to a fully-charged state. According to the back of an
envelope I have here, that's getting on for half the nominal capacity,
which is a huge difference.

--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"I am Number Two," said Penfold. "You are Number Six."
 
In article <[email protected]>, MVP
<mr.nice@*nospam*softhome.net> writes
>On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:38:53 GMT, SpamTrapSeeSig
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>snipped<
>>
>>Seconded, with two other comments:
>>
>>It's worth keeping the battery warm-ish - I use laminate floor underlay
>>(the sort that comes on a roll) under mine, and today am putting
>>bubble-wrap round it and on top (first serious cold night was last
>>night). Don't laugh: if the vehicle is likely to get really cold, you
>>could consider a hot water bottle put next to the battery overnight (not
>>boiling, obviously), just to keep the temp decent for the morning.
>>
>>snipped<
>
>Isn't this a bit pointless as the battery is attached to a bloody
>great heatsink (the chassis)?

Not if you've stood it on some reasonably effective insulation in the
first place. IIRC, the Scandinavians have proper electrical heating
jackets for them.


Regards,

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/
 
In article <[email protected]>, David G. Bell
<[email protected]> writes
>On Sunday, in article
> <[email protected]>
> [email protected] "SpamTrapSeeSig" wrote:
>
>> One final thing - electrolyte loss will be worse in cold weather as the
>> air can get much drier (when warmed). It's worth checking the levels at
>> least once during the winter in case. If one or two cells are noticeably
>> lower than the rest, the battery's probably on the way out - a
>> hygrometer will tell you most accurately. If they're all low, you should
>> charge it gently after you top up with de-ionized water.
>
>It's been my experience that most ordinary battery chargers will take a
>couple of days, ammeter needle barely off the stop, to bring the
>specific gravity to a fully-charged state. According to the back of an
>envelope I have here, that's getting on for half the nominal capacity,
>which is a huge difference.

Sorry: my normal chargers pack a decent punch - I meant 2 or 3A (for a
Landy battery).

Regards,

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/
 
SpamTrapSeeSig wrote:

> Not if you've stood it on some reasonably effective insulation in the
> first place. IIRC, the Scandinavians have proper electrical heating
> jackets for them.

Doesn't those bloody great heavy cables also drain heat ?

Steve
 
On Sunday, in article
<[email protected]>
[email protected] "SpamTrapSeeSig" wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, David G. Bell
> <[email protected]> writes
> >On Sunday, in article
> > <[email protected]>
> > [email protected] "SpamTrapSeeSig" wrote:
> >
> >> One final thing - electrolyte loss will be worse in cold weather as the
> >> air can get much drier (when warmed). It's worth checking the levels at
> >> least once during the winter in case. If one or two cells are noticeably
> >> lower than the rest, the battery's probably on the way out - a
> >> hygrometer will tell you most accurately. If they're all low, you should
> >> charge it gently after you top up with de-ionized water.
> >
> >It's been my experience that most ordinary battery chargers will take a
> >couple of days, ammeter needle barely off the stop, to bring the
> >specific gravity to a fully-charged state. According to the back of an
> >envelope I have here, that's getting on for half the nominal capacity,
> >which is a huge difference.
>
> Sorry: my normal chargers pack a decent punch - I meant 2 or 3A (for a
> Landy battery).

That 2 or 3A is at the upper end of the charge rate I was thinking of.

Incidentally, the big 643 battery was only on the diesel Series III. The
petrol engines used something smaller. Whatever the battery size, check
the earth is good, battery to chassis and chassis to engine. With the
current needed to start, it doesn't take very much resistance to make a
huge difference.

--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"I am Number Two," said Penfold. "You are Number Six."
 
In message <[email protected]>
PacMan <[email protected]> wrote:

> It was round about Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:04:50 +0000,, when the famed
> Mother of the dreaded Nope - none at all, you should see my desk....
> was struck by a sudden insight:
>
> >On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:11:52 +0000, PacMan <[email protected]>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Any recommendations, advice, or should I just go out armed with a tape
> >>measure, and buy the biggest ampere hourage(?) battery I can find?
> >
> >Basically, yes. You're looking at getting something cheap - if you
> >have any sense (speaking as someone who spends shedloads on Optimas
> >and other Gel batteries) as it's for running the car only - yes?
> >(Not lots of other stuff like fridge etc., which will need the deep
> >cycle properties of Gel and Optima type batteries)
>
> That's right, it's just to start and run. It tows a horse trailer
> roughly twice per week, but that's only another 20W regularly (2 rear
> lights, 2 front/side).
> >
> >If it'll fit, check the rating for CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) against
> >the one you're taking to the recycle centre. Give or take 5 to 10
> >each way isn't going to make a great deal of difference. For a D90,
> >get a standard Discovery 200/300Tdi battery.
>
> TYVM :)

069 is the code for the battery you should look for. That will fit the
clamps etc. Fit a bigger one if you like, but if it won't start with an
069 then you are just putting off the day when you have to find out
what is *really* wrong.

Personaly, first I'd run a jump lead from battery -ve to the block (lifting
brackets work well) and see if it starts - cold weather highlights bad
earths as well as duff batteries.

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 

"beamendsltd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:2cdf31cd4d%[email protected]...
> In message <[email protected]>
> PacMan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> It was round about Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:04:50 +0000,, when the famed
>> Mother of the dreaded Nope - none at all, you should see my desk....
>> was struck by a sudden insight:
>>
>> >On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:11:52 +0000, PacMan <[email protected]>
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>Any recommendations, advice, or should I just go out armed with a tape
>> >>measure, and buy the biggest ampere hourage(?) battery I can find?
>> >
>> >Basically, yes. You're looking at getting something cheap - if you
>> >have any sense (speaking as someone who spends shedloads on Optimas
>> >and other Gel batteries) as it's for running the car only - yes?
>> >(Not lots of other stuff like fridge etc., which will need the deep
>> >cycle properties of Gel and Optima type batteries)
>>
>> That's right, it's just to start and run. It tows a horse trailer
>> roughly twice per week, but that's only another 20W regularly (2 rear
>> lights, 2 front/side).
>> >
>> >If it'll fit, check the rating for CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) against
>> >the one you're taking to the recycle centre. Give or take 5 to 10
>> >each way isn't going to make a great deal of difference. For a D90,
>> >get a standard Discovery 200/300Tdi battery.
>>
>> TYVM :)
>
> 069 is the code for the battery you should look for. That will fit the
> clamps etc. Fit a bigger one if you like, but if it won't start with an
> 069 then you are just putting off the day when you have to find out
> what is *really* wrong.
>
> Personaly, first I'd run a jump lead from battery -ve to the block
> (lifting
> brackets work well) and see if it starts - cold weather highlights bad
> earths as well as duff batteries.
>
> Richard
>

590cca and only 72Ah, the same as the 089 apart from slightly different
dimensions to-whit about 5mm less length.
Cranking performance and reserve capacity is significantly inferior to a
probably cheaper 643.
Last 643 I had was about £40 +VAT IIRC.
Both will start the TDi no doubt but one will significantly outperform the
other when the going gets tuff.

Huw


 
On or around Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:43:13 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>069 is the code for the battery you should look for. That will fit the
>clamps etc. Fit a bigger one if you like, but if it won't start with an
>069 then you are just putting off the day when you have to find out
>what is *really* wrong.

very true, but you've missed one of the points: I can buy a 643/644 from
the local agricultural merchant, as a "tractor battery", for less then
halfrauds etc want for an 069, and it's a bigger battery so has more reserve
for when conditions are sub-optimal into the bargain.

And yes, the disco is meant to run an 069 as well. The 300 TDi has a space
about 1/4" longer than a 643/644 (and you do have to get the right one for a
disco or the leads don't reach)(and no, I don't know which without looking
at it - anyone needs to know, ask...) and the mod to the clamp involves
removing and/or bending flat 2 bits of metal which make the clamp reach a
shorter battery.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Ask yourself whether you are happy, and you cease to be so."
John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873)
 

"PacMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi all, and sorry for jumping in with a question to begin with.
>
> I have a 1997 Defender 90 tdi, now with 80,000 miles, which wouldn't
> start this morning. Diagnosis: need a new battery, since I know this
> one's at least 5 years old.
>
> Halfreaud's didn't have the recommended one in stock, and when I take
> the old one out to connect to my bike's Optimate overnight (tell you
> if it works tomorrow), it looks like the only constraint on battery
> model is: will it fit under that front seat compartment?
>
> Any recommendations, advice, or should I just go out armed with a tape
> measure, and buy the biggest ampere hourage(?) battery I can find?

Right, let's see what the Lucas 2004 Battery catalogue says:

Defender 90 300tdi, all Disco 1 diesels, all Range Rover apart from
post-1994 diesels - type 089/4
Range Rover all diesels 94-00 - type 664

Both 089 and 664 have the positive terminal near-left, as do 644 and 069
(two of the others mentioned elsewhere)

The fun starts because there are several variants of 069 and 089, which
Lucas designate according to the length of guarantee - /1, /3, /4
(years) but which also differ in performance

Get your fixed width font on:

Type CCA(SAE) RC Ah L W H Weight(kg)

089/1 450 90 55 265 175 205 16.1
069/3, 089/3 510 105 65 18.1
069/4, 089/4 590 130 72 19.5

644 735 180 105 345 172 239 27.7
664 800 200 115 345 172 239 29.0

069 are actually 5mm longer overall, but this is almost certainly
because they have hold-downs, which none of the others do.

CCA - Cold Cranking Amps. The SAE test measures the performance
at -18C. CCA is the current deliverable for 30s without the voltage
dropping below 7.2V. Other makers may quote DIN, ETN, JIS tests, and
there is no simple conversion between the results.

RC - Reserve Capacity. Time in minutes that it can deliver 25A before
the voltage drops to 10.5. Measured at 25C.

Ah - Ampere hour capacity. Number of amps times number of hours before
the voltage drops to 10.5, with the current adjusted so it takes exactly
20h. e.g. a Lucas 069/4 will deliver 3.6A for 20h =72 Ah.

So the moral is that within this range of batteries, the heavier the
better, and if you want to go for the cv / tractor option, remember
they're longer and taller.

If it makes you feel better, the 069/4 is also recommended for a Bentley
Arnage (and fits an Austin Cambridge)


--
Kevin Poole
**Use current month and year to reply (e.g. [email protected])***
Car Transport by Tiltbed Trailer - based near Derby



 
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dazer200
de arm alarm without using key fob ? FIXED
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