Alternator W and B+

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Lee_D

Guest
Replacement alternator for Morph arrived today.

This one has the same connector (where the three leads go in) but also has
two additional stumps which didn't feature on the old unit.

They are marked B+ and W. I'd guess one is for a rev counter but can any
one provide a definative answer please as to what they are for. May be a
chance for some additional developement :)

Lee D
--
www.lrproject.com

a.f.l. & 101ers Unofficial October 2006
<http://www.lrproject.com/afl__101_owners_unofficial.htm>

"Anti's - Give
them enough rope and they'll be stuck in a ditch with alot of rope ;-) "


 

"Lee_D" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Replacement alternator for Morph arrived today.
>
> This one has the same connector (where the three leads go in) but also has
> two additional stumps which didn't feature on the old unit.
>
> They are marked B+ and W. I'd guess one is for a rev counter but can any
> one provide a definative answer please as to what they are for. May be a
> chance for some additional developement :)
>
> Lee D

W is the feed to the alternator, B+ is, I "think", the voltage sensing feed
for internal regulation. it turns it into an external sensed regulator, for
use with the older blocking-diode type of split charge systems.
Badger.


 
Badger <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz funny about:
> "Lee_D" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Replacement alternator for Morph arrived today.
>>
>> This one has the same connector (where the three leads go in) but
>> also has two additional stumps which didn't feature on the old unit.
>>
>> They are marked B+ and W. I'd guess one is for a rev counter but
>> can any one provide a definative answer please as to what they are
>> for. May be a chance for some additional developement :)
>>
>> Lee D
>
> W is the feed to the alternator, B+ is, I "think", the voltage
> sensing feed for internal regulation. it turns it into an external
> sensed regulator, for use with the older blocking-diode type of split
> charge systems.
> Badger.

Ah , me thinks I need to know more. Although Morph only has the three wires
in the one block (or would have if there were a block - presently they are
individual items IYSWIM) , he also has a big diode pack which looks like a
coil for the split charge system. I have ignored this until now but
curiosity has now got the better of me. Morph has 2 Batteries, one I
understand purely to fire the starter and the tuther for auxillaries..
though I'm sure it's more complexed than my basic understanding.

Lee


 
Lee_D wrote:

> Badger <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz funny about:
>
>>"Lee_D" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Replacement alternator for Morph arrived today.
>>>
>>>This one has the same connector (where the three leads go in) but
>>>also has two additional stumps which didn't feature on the old unit.
>>>
>>>They are marked B+ and W. I'd guess one is for a rev counter but
>>>can any one provide a definative answer please as to what they are
>>>for. May be a chance for some additional developement :)
>>>
>>>Lee D
>>
>>W is the feed to the alternator, B+ is, I "think", the voltage
>>sensing feed for internal regulation. it turns it into an external
>>sensed regulator, for use with the older blocking-diode type of split
>>charge systems.
>>Badger.
>
>
> Ah , me thinks I need to know more. Although Morph only has the three wires
> in the one block (or would have if there were a block - presently they are
> individual items IYSWIM) , he also has a big diode pack which looks like a
> coil for the split charge system. I have ignored this until now but
> curiosity has now got the better of me. Morph has 2 Batteries, one I
> understand purely to fire the starter and the tuther for auxillaries..
> though I'm sure it's more complexed than my basic understanding.
>
> Lee

Lee - do you have the army manual for the ambulance with the wiring
diagram showing the split charge diodes etc.? 4.7 Mb pdf file here if
not. I could extract some relevant bits

It's been on the web but I can't remember where.
 
Badger wrote:

> "Lee_D" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Replacement alternator for Morph arrived today.
>>
>>This one has the same connector (where the three leads go in) but also has
>>two additional stumps which didn't feature on the old unit.
>>
>>They are marked B+ and W. I'd guess one is for a rev counter but can any
>>one provide a definative answer please as to what they are for. May be a
>>chance for some additional developement :)
>>
>>Lee D
>
>
> W is the feed to the alternator, B+ is, I "think", the voltage sensing feed
> for internal regulation. it turns it into an external sensed regulator, for
> use with the older blocking-diode type of split charge systems.
> Badger.

Slip of the keyboard, I'm sure you meant W for Tacho.

Little B+ will be the sensing lead for a battery-sensed alternator.
You'll have to connect it as otherwise your alternator will have no
output regulation. The alternator does not default to a machine-sensed
unit if the connection is not made.

You probably ought to identify this alternator properly to be 100
percent sure.
 
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:02:31 +0100, "Lee_D"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Ah , me thinks I need to know more. Although Morph only has the three wires
>in the one block (or would have if there were a block - presently they are
>individual items IYSWIM) , he also has a big diode pack which looks like a
>coil for the split charge system. I have ignored this until now but
>curiosity has now got the better of me. Morph has 2 Batteries, one I
>understand purely to fire the starter and the tuther for auxillaries..
>though I'm sure it's more complexed than my basic understanding.

doesnt the diode pack work in the same way as a simple split charge
relay would?
My ambi came with the split charge running off a relay switched by the
charge light and all the wiring to it looked stock? (i.e. crappy!)

 

"Dougal" <DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Badger wrote:
>
> > "Lee_D" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>Replacement alternator for Morph arrived today.
> >>
> >>This one has the same connector (where the three leads go in) but also
has
> >>two additional stumps which didn't feature on the old unit.
> >>
> >>They are marked B+ and W. I'd guess one is for a rev counter but can
any
> >>one provide a definative answer please as to what they are for. May be a
> >>chance for some additional developement :)
> >>
> >>Lee D
> >
> >
> > W is the feed to the alternator, B+ is, I "think", the voltage sensing
feed
> > for internal regulation. it turns it into an external sensed regulator,
for
> > use with the older blocking-diode type of split charge systems.
> > Badger.
>
> Slip of the keyboard, I'm sure you meant W for Tacho.

Indeed I did, thanks for correcting my slippage!

> Little B+ will be the sensing lead for a battery-sensed alternator.
> You'll have to connect it as otherwise your alternator will have no
> output regulation. The alternator does not default to a machine-sensed
> unit if the connection is not made.

I've seen Lucas (A133?) alternators where the B+ (small terminal) is
connected internally and requires no external connection, but can be used
for external sensing by disconnecting a link wire internally!

> You probably ought to identify this alternator properly to be 100
> percent sure.

Sounds as if it might be a 22ACR, some of them had the multiple terminals I
think?

Badger.


 
Badger wrote:

> I've seen Lucas (A133?) alternators where the B+ (small terminal) is
> connected internally and requires no external connection, but can be used
> for external sensing by disconnecting a link wire internally!

That's useful. I presume that the internal connection is there by
default and to make it 'unsafe' you need to go inside.
 
Dougal <DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk> uttered summat worrerz
funny about:
> Badger wrote:
>
>> I've seen Lucas (A133?) alternators where the B+ (small terminal) is
>> connected internally and requires no external connection, but can be
>> used for external sensing by disconnecting a link wire internally!
>
> That's useful. I presume that the internal connection is there by
> default and to make it 'unsafe' you need to go inside.

Blimmey, this is getting complicated. The alternator was provided to replace
what looked like an A133 on an exchange basis yet this one doesn't have all
the black plastic at the back and is much shorter as a result.

Is it just a case of wiring up the wires I have , kick up and check the
output voltage and if it goes above say 14.5 then begin to ponder further?

Lee D


 
Lee_D <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz
funny about:
> Blimmey, this is getting complicated. The alternator was provided to
> replace what looked like an A133 on an exchange basis yet this one
> doesn't have all the black plastic at the back and is much shorter as
> a result.
> Is it just a case of wiring up the wires I have , kick up and check
> the output voltage and if it goes above say 14.5 then begin to ponder
> further?
> Lee D

Right, gone and fetched it off the Kitchen window sill,

It's by CJF Rotating electrics and say REP Lucas A463.

The W terminal has a black plastic cap on.

The B+ terminal doesn't , The B+ also appears to have a male spade connector
on the same pole too.

Why is nothing ever simple!

Lee D


 
Lee_D wrote:

> Lee_D <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz
> funny about:
>
>>Blimmey, this is getting complicated. The alternator was provided to
>>replace what looked like an A133 on an exchange basis yet this one
>>doesn't have all the black plastic at the back and is much shorter as
>>a result.
>>Is it just a case of wiring up the wires I have , kick up and check
>>the output voltage and if it goes above say 14.5 then begin to ponder
>>further?
>>Lee D
>
>
> Right, gone and fetched it off the Kitchen window sill,
>
> It's by CJF Rotating electrics and say REP Lucas A463.
>
> The W terminal has a black plastic cap on.
>
> The B+ terminal doesn't , The B+ also appears to have a male spade connector
> on the same pole too.
>
> Why is nothing ever simple!
>
> Lee D

C J F ROTATING AUTO ELECTRICS LTD
UNIT 6-9 GREEN INDSTL EST
STATION RD
CANNOCK
STAFFORDSHIRE
WS12 4EG

01543 424 717

Give them a ring and find out exactly what the score is.

PS - the post code given may be wrong
 
Dougal <DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk> uttered summat worrerz
funny about:
> C J F ROTATING AUTO ELECTRICS LTD
> UNIT 6-9 GREEN INDSTL EST
> STATION RD
> CANNOCK
> STAFFORDSHIRE
> WS12 4EG
>
> 01543 424 717
>
> Give them a ring and find out exactly what the score is.
>
> PS - the post code given may be wrong

TA!

Lee D


 
Lee_D <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz
funny about:
>> 01543 424 717
>>
>> Give them a ring and find out exactly what the score is.
>>
>> PS - the post code given may be wrong
>
> TA!
>
> Lee D

Sorted,

Nice chaps too! Big ones of the three in the plug go to +, smaller spade
goes to ignition light

B+ can be left empty and also the W, that'll do for a start.

Rev counters - I take it the simplest option is still to go for a feed from
the coil "-" unless I fit a 1990 circa Classic dashboard at some point. I.e.
do the rev counters that run from the alternator need some extra gizmology
to work out the pulse or are they essentially the same?

Lee D


 
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:41:57 +0100, "Lee_D"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>Rev counters - I take it the simplest option is still to go for a feed from
>the coil "-" unless I fit a 1990 circa Classic dashboard at some point. I.e.
>do the rev counters that run from the alternator need some extra gizmology
>to work out the pulse or are they essentially the same?
>
>Lee D
>
One of the simplest tuning tricks I did with my classic was to fit an
alternator with a slightly smaller pulley.

Suddenly the engine would rev about 500RPM higher at the top end.

Strangely no change in speedo though. (!)

Moral - Must be some clever matching in the instrument panel to allow
for ratio between crankshaft and alternator pulleys.

David
 

"Lee_D" <[email protected]> wrote in message :-
>
> Rev counters - I take it the simplest option is still to go for a feed
from
> the coil "-" unless I fit a 1990 circa Classic dashboard at some point.
I.e.
> do the rev counters that run from the alternator need some extra gizmology
> to work out the pulse or are they essentially the same?
>
> Lee D
>
>

It doesn't matter which alternator you have if you use the Classic dash,
just solder a wire on to one end of any of the stator wires where they go to
the diodes to pick up an a/c signal and connect to rev counter trigger wire
(white). You may have to change the pulley size to match the rev counter to
the engine speed.

Martin


 
On or around Tue, 29 Aug 2006 18:09:34 +0100, "Lee_D"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Replacement alternator for Morph arrived today.
>
>This one has the same connector (where the three leads go in) but also has
>two additional stumps which didn't feature on the old unit.
>
>They are marked B+ and W. I'd guess one is for a rev counter but can any
>one provide a definative answer please as to what they are for. May be a
>chance for some additional developement :)

if it has the 3-blade connector with 2 fat ones and a skinny one, then
that's all you need to connect if you have the 3-wire plug. The 2 fat ones
are output and the skinny one is fed from the ignition light via a
brown/yellow on most things but possibly not on a 101.

The W terminal can be used to feed a rev counter or other devices - I've
seen it used to heat an electrically-heated auto-choke.

<Thinks> B+ is probably output. I forget right now... hmmm. I should have
one outside to look at, 'ang on...

yeah, B+ is output. It'll be so that it can be connected to the kind of
thing that has a ring terminal on the output wire.

some of them have a D+ as well, which is the same as the small terminal of
the 3-blade block.

a quick prod with a continuity tester should confirm that B+ and either of
the big blades are connected.

The W terminal puts out AC which is why people run rev counters from it,
although it's prone to some impressive inaccuracies.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Remember that to change your mind and follow him who sets you right
is to be none the less free than you were before."
Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (121-180), from Meditations, VIII.16
 
On or around Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:11:29 GMT, rads
<[email protected]> enlightened us
thusly:

>On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:41:57 +0100, "Lee_D"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>Suddenly the engine would rev about 500RPM higher at the top end.
>
>Strangely no change in speedo though. (!)
>
>Moral - Must be some clever matching in the instrument panel to allow
>for ratio between crankshaft and alternator pulleys.

not really, I think they rely on luck. I replaced the alternator on our TDi
with the same model, same pulley, and it read about 1000 rpm high at top-end
revs, or about 500 rpm high in the middle.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
If all be true that I do think, There are five reasons we should drink;
Good wine, a friend, or being dry, Or lest we should be by and by;
Or any other reason why. - Henry Aldrich (1647 - 1710)
 
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