4 x 4 Light allways on :s

Check out the greenlaning section, there'll be someone or a group in your area who can take you out (never go alone!) they can show you all you need to know about yer gears.

Before you go into any field or off road best think about how you are going to get out when you get stuck, no point thinking after it happens, having to leave your vehicle to get help.

Remember centre diff locks both front and rear axles together and not the diffs in the axles. This could mean two wheel drive when stuck, one rear and one front and going nowhere, particularilly in a field. Best with waffle boards and a high lift (if you have fitted jacking points), and a spade if you don't to dig it to get the boards into the wheels. Go with neither then you are asking for trouble, you won't push it out.

Dig it in deep enough and you will need a tractor to get it out, if you have ropes or slings and that's when you start to see damage getting done if you don't know what you are doing.

Play yes, but safe, you tow it out on yer tow ball and get hit in the mush you won't have to worry again.

david451 said:

Before you go into any field or off road best think about how you are going to get out when you get stuck, no point thinking after it happens, having to leave your vehicle to get help.

Remember centre diff locks both front and rear axles together and not the diffs in the axles. This could mean two wheel drive when stuck, one rear and one front and going nowhere, particularilly in a field. Best with waffle boards and a high lift (if you have fitted jacking points), and a spade if you don't to dig it to get the boards into the wheels. Go with neither then you are asking for trouble, you won't push it out.

Dig it in deep enough and you will need a tractor to get it out, if you have ropes or slings and that's when you start to see damage getting done if you don't know what you are doing.

Play yes, but safe, you tow it out on yer tow ball and get hit in the mush you won't have to worry again.

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real ray of sunshine, aint you?!!

Aye the centre diff lock is of limited use in muddy stuff. I have to get across a couple of fields that have been churned up by horses and a tractor creating axle deep slime. In that kind of situation the centre diff lock makes no difference if all four wheels are in the ****. It's a matter of knowing where you can and can't go.

david451 said:

Before you go into any field or off road best think about how you are going to get out when you get stuck, no point thinking after it happens, having to leave your vehicle to get help.

Remember centre diff locks both front and rear axles together and not the diffs in the axles. This could mean two wheel drive when stuck, one rear and one front and going nowhere, particularilly in a field. Best with waffle boards and a high lift (if you have fitted jacking points), and a spade if you don't to dig it to get the boards into the wheels. Go with neither then you are asking for trouble, you won't push it out.

Dig it in deep enough and you will need a tractor to get it out, if you have ropes or slings and that's when you start to see damage getting done if you don't know what you are doing.

Play yes, but safe, you tow it out on yer tow ball and get hit in the mush you won't have to worry again.

Click to expand...

ARE YOU FROM ANOTHER PLANET??

This guy didn't even know that Disco's are permanent 4 wheel drive and you're talking to him like this - you'll scare him half to death and confuse him in the process.

Try to empathise a little please and talk the language he's going to understand.

I'll reiterate...

Find a group and go out with them. If you get stuck they'll be enough experience and help to get you out.

You will learn about the capabilities of your car... make new friends... find out what these vehicles are made of... and enjoy a quality day..!

there is no point going out on your own, getting into trouble and not knowing anyone who can help you out..!

if you wanna have some fun on your own... go to a pay and play day site... there's loads of them

where abouts in the country are you???
someone in your area take this guy greenlaning and show him the ropes... strops and winches!

david451 said:

Play yes, but safe, you tow it out on yer tow ball and get hit in the mush you won't have to worry again.

Click to expand...

You see this bit makes me ****. A virtual £5 to anyone who can tell me the shearing load for a LR approved ball and pin Tow Hitch. Not max SWL but actual shear force required before the bolts let go. or the pin deforms and shears.

Then tell me how that compares the the shearing/deformation forces required to rip a pair of Jate rings out of the rear chassis rails.

Right to save you all from struggling with this I am going to turn perceived recovery wisdom on it's head. and tell you that given a choice between a ball and pin towing hitch and a Jate ring I'd choose the ball and pin everytime. and here's why. a 10mm pin (the Jate Rings bolt) fixed thru a 2mm box section (the chassis rail) has a maximum safe load rating of 340kg yes 340kg That's 680kg for a pair of them. before you risk deforming the hole and tearing the steel chassis rail.

A 16mm bolt (towball mounting bolts) has a rating of more than 7tonnes times 2 = more than 14tonnes. the pin in the ball & pin hitch is about 16mm this has a shear force of 6tonnes. I know which I'd prefer to tow off.

All these figures have a built in safety factor of 3. what this means is that when using Jates rings your operating at max capacity and beyond with no safety margins in place.

Would have thought a jate ring on a rusty bit of chassis would come out pretty easy. I wouldn't trust one if it needed a proper yank to get it shifted.

hughesy said:

Would have thought a jate ring on a rusty bit of chassis would come out pretty easy. I wouldn't trust one if it needed a proper yank to get it shifted.

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Aye and those figures I posted don't allow for corrosion or previous stresses incurred as a result of other recovery's. And yet I visit loads of 4x4 websites where the perceived wisdom is that you should always favor a pair of Jate rings and a bridle over a tow hitch. and where using a tow hitch is frowned upon and in some clubs even banned. rear Jate rings on a disco or Rangey are fine because the attachment point is reinforced and designed to be used as a recovery point. on a defender/90/110 they should only ever be used on the front of the chassis. As these are also reinforced for this purpose.

The MOD uses the Nato pintle as it's rear recovery point and it's for this reason that LR never bothered upgrading the rear chassis 0n 90/110's

This link explains it all in much more detail Vehicle Recovery Points And some technical aspects, by Mike Lauterbach

good points Pikey.

thebiglad said:

ARE YOU FROM ANOTHER PLANET??

This guy didn't even know that Disco's are permanent 4 wheel drive and you're talking to him like this - you'll scare him half to death and confuse him in the process.

Try to empathise a little please and talk the language he's going to understand.

Click to expand...

like stay on the road until you know better, go with an experienced friend, or join a club. Or spend a bit more time on here. I hope I made him think a bit and he is not sitting in a field up to his arse in mud in never never land or worse still needing to visit the dentist to get the high lift out his face.

redhand said:

You see this bit makes me ****. A virtual £5 to anyone who can tell me the shearing load for a LR approved ball and pin Tow Hitch. Not max SWL but actual shear force required before the bolts let go. or the pin deforms and shears.

Then tell me how that compares the the shearing/deformation forces required to rip a pair of Jate rings out of the rear chassis rails.

Click to expand...

I guess it's down to opinion, I'm not sure what the figures are for balls breaking off, but since it seems that whole tow bars have been ripped off I would prefer to wrap the strop around the whole bar since it is less likely to come winging towards you like an RPG as the ball would, If it came off, particularilly if it's a tractor driver/farmer pulling you out.

The proper devices also tend to stay on the rope or strop if you rip them off, and if you have an anker half way up the rope then it should catch it, the ball won't stay on the rope will it, and it's fairly heavy, much more so than my couplings are. And if you use a pulley into the equasion you multiply the pulling power by three making a failure easier and potentially more tragic. I don't think we should be encouraging this type of practice.

david451 said:

I guess it's down to opinion, I'm not sure what the figures are for balls breaking off, but since it seems that whole tow bars have been ripped off I would prefer to wrap the strop around the whole bar since it is less likely to come winging towards you like an RPG as the ball would, If it came off, particularilly if it's a tractor driver/farmer pulling you out.

The proper devices also tend to stay on the rope or strop if you rip them off, and if you have an anker half way up the rope then it should catch it, the ball won't stay on the rope will it, and it's fairly heavy, much more so than my couplings are. And if you use a pulley into the equasion you multiply the pulling power by three making a failure easier and potentially more tragic. I don't think we should be encouraging this type of practice.

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I've only known 2 tow point to part company and in both cases it's been the welds holding em to homemade rear bumpers that have failed not the towball. having said that I did say ball and pin, because they are rated to 3.5tonnes and because the strap can't come off if you use a towing pin.

The MOD use a towing pintle for recovering stuck landies. Are you saying you'd trust a 10mm bolt over a 2 16mm, and 2 10mm bolts or a 16mm High tensile steel pin. Jate rings are fine on the rear of a disco or the front of a disco or defender but should never be used on the rear of a defender

redhand said:

I've only known 2 tow point to part company and in both cases it's been the welds holding em to homemade rear bumpers that have failed not the towball. having said that I did say ball and pin, because they are rated to 3.5tonnes and because the strap can't come off if you use a towing pin.

The MOD use a towing pintle for recovering stuck landies. Are you saying you'd trust a 10mm bolt over a 2 16mm, and 2 10mm bolts or a 16mm High tensile steel pin. Jate rings are fine on the rear of a disco or the front of a disco or defender but should never be used on the rear of a defender

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Yep I made you **** because I said Ball, I am aware you have subsequently said ball and pin, 3.5tonnes on a snatch recovery, but there is no shock rating on the plate.

Let's get this right, no recovery on a ball, FULL STOP, ball and pin, if you want but on the pin, not the ball. I think that this was my point, and you have confused it with rocket science. FFS.

david451 said:

Yep I made you **** because I said Ball, I am aware you have subsequently said ball and pin, 3.5tonnes on a snatch recovery, but there is no shock rating on the plate.

Let's get this right, no recovery on a ball, FULL STOP, ball and pin, if you want but on the pin, not the ball. I think that this was my point, and you have confused it with rocket science. FFS.

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Why no recovery on a ball?? A ball will always be stronger than a rear mounted Jate Ring. If your worried about the strap coming off a proper sized shackle will lock onto the ball. If your worried that the ball might shear what evidence do you have to back up your fears. (I've provided proof as to the shearing /tearing stresses for pins etc). I don't understand your reference to shockloading on a towball. Snatch recoveries are inherently dangerous regardless of fixing points and should never be used at all. KER ropes are banned by most CCV & RCT events. How is a towball going to hit you if your been recovered by a tractor. it'll be behind you and will head for the tractor not you. If all you have to attach a towrope to is a rear jate ring or a towball choose the towball everytime. Or better still use the ball and attach a failsafe strap from the jate ring to the ball

Or don't get stuck

to the origonal poster..

1. in west yorkshire there's a few close pay and plays and all can be found listed on the forum in the offroad section try searching tong, brier cliffe theres a few more relitvly close that i cant remember..

2. the diff lock is not required for offroad driving...only if there is a likelyhood of loosing traction(according to the disco owners manual which btw i have a spare someware if you want it..it give's lr's version of basic technique) and as i was saying the diff isent required constentlly and if used for too long when not needed will cause wind up in the half shafts which require's you to reverse untill unwound and can be disengaged again(also stated in the handbook)... i spent the day at tong with a few lads from here and used mine only twice the whole day..

3. i agree with pikey fully on this, jate rings are ok but i wouldent trust them alone and if i had to choose jate ring over tow ball, the tow ball would win hands down..use a large d shakle around the neck of the ball and how can it pop off since the shank is considerably smaller than the ball.

redhand said:

Right to save you all from struggling with this I am going to turn perceived recovery wisdom on it's head. and tell you that given a choice between a ball and pin towing hitch and a Jate ring I'd choose the ball and pin everytime. and here's why. a 10mm pin (the Jate Rings bolt) fixed thru a 2mm box section (the chassis rail) has a maximum safe load rating of 340kg yes 340kg That's 680kg for a pair of them. before you risk deforming the hole and tearing the steel chassis rail.

A 16mm bolt (towball mounting bolts) has a rating of more than 7tonnes times 2 = more than 14tonnes. the pin in the ball & pin hitch is about 16mm this has a shear force of 6tonnes. I know which I'd prefer to tow off.

All these figures have a built in safety factor of 3. what this means is that when using Jates rings your operating at max capacity and beyond with no safety margins in place.

Click to expand...

Dont know specifics but I drag a bastard big caravan with far too much **** that me folks dont really need in it!Id trust that tow ball every time and its factory fitted.But I do have jate rings on the front tho

goonarmy said:

Dont know specifics but I drag a bastard big caravan with far too much **** that me folks dont really need in it!Id trust that tow ball every time and its factory fitted.But I do have jate rings on the front tho

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Jate rings are fine on the front as the chassis is designed to take the stresses involved. as are the rear chassis's on disco's and the classic. but not on a 90/110 or defender.

Most people read about towball shearing and think it happens all the time It happened once that I can find on the net. and the plonker took an highspeed run off with a steel cable attached from the back of his Jeep to the front of a chevy pickup. That was stuck solid in the mud. FFS any recovery point will let go once you apply those sort of loadings.