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Discussion in 'LandyZone International Rescue' started by tsodilo, Dec 28, 2017.

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  1. Henry_b

    Henry_b Well-Known Member

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    Just read this and TBH i'm gobsmacked ;)

    Incredible service from the LZIR team and various members.

    And TBH that CRV will prolly be a standing monument to OP's stupidity, with what looks like bald road tyres and no insurance, you'd have to be lacking some serious brain to even consider driving that up there.. :confused:
     
  2. jamesmartin

    jamesmartin Well-Known Member

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    it is stupidity,its one thing towing your mates out another pretending your offering a service to the public
     
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  3. Stanleysteamer

    Stanleysteamer Well-Known Member

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    X is an unknown quantity, and spurt is a drip under pressure, so there you have an expert.
    As I posted, I am an ex-recovery operative. Although I have Land Rovers, the recovery truck belonged to my mate, the crew chief so he had the Milemarker winch and all the gear. All I had was the overalls.
    I am a bit surprised by all the vilification. I would of course help anyone I could if necessary and I do carry a certain amount of recovery gear, but not the full kit. I would just hate to read or hear of anyone hurting themselves while trying to do a good turn in circumstances that were beyond their capabilities.

    I am absolutely not knocking the LZIR, and I am sure that some of the people who have signed up do have some recovery training, but I cannot help but feel that anyone who signs up to it needs to go along to some kind of training to at least get an idea of what they must do to stabilise a vehicle before helping anyone. This is actually the remit of a rescue team in MSA work, but the recovery team usually goes along at the same time to provide back up and support, before recovering the vehicle. Many of the rescue teams contain paramedics and fire and rescue personel in their normal lives anyway.

    Goonarmy, "Who else would provide the assessment then?" As far as the safety of the driver and passengers is concerned, the assessment is purely of what danger they are in, and what danger they are likely to find themselves in if they try to move, either to free themselves from the vehicle or to get more help or to a place of safety. If they are conscious enough to make phone calls or use the internet, they can call 999 and get the emergency services to provide rescue. Fire and rescue would not concern themselves with recovery but they would have the ability to organise it especially if the vehicle was in a precarious situation and/or likely to cause obstruction, possible danger or to pollute the environment. The first priority is the human lives involved. Only where the emergency services find themselves overwhelmed by a major incident would people like the the LZIR be put in the front line and put themselves in the position of having to make dramatic decisions. Normally this would be dramatic weather conditions, flood, forest fire, etc.

    What concerns me is the person who thinks he can do more than just the basics and then puts himself and possibly others in danger. To give you a perfect example, I was on a training session at Goodwood once where the vehicle that had to be recovered had been put at the bottom of a kind of ravine. One guy on the recovery team tied off the safety rope to a suitable anchor point. Two recovery teams were being used mine and one another, it was one of the other guys who tied the rope. Halfway down the side of the ravine, using the safety rope, I found myself flying through the air. The other operative who tied the rope on had the famous "no idea" I mentioned before. Luckily I rolled into a ball in mid air and landed on my back. I was winded but missed all the concrete blocks that were lying around. i could have died or been seriously injured. And that was during a supervised training session, with 2 recovery crews, on an exercise. If that can happen there, you should be able to imagine far worse happening when a well-meaning amateur tries to go outside his knowledge zone. A vehicle is just a lump of metal, glass and plastic. No one's health and safety is worth trying to recover it. This whole thread shows the folly of trying to do stuff you are not equipped for and have not the training for.

    As far as breakdowns are concerned, the LZIR is absolutely in its element, and I have used it myself to find someone with a nanocom to come and help me. But this thread concerns people putting themselves and their vehicles in real danger. The original poster was at fault by trying to get non-professionals to provide a free recovery service in extremely dangerous circumstances. Nothing was the fault of the willing members of the LZIR who tried to help the gormless schmuck who obviously was trying to get a free ride. So don't have a go at me, I am just the messenger who wants no one to suffer.

    Pillar, you are mixing up a lot off stuff. I agree with your first two statements, although the second begs the enormous question of what is the LZIR set up to do? If not everyone is recovery trained, then not everyone should attempt recovery, QED. Your third statement tries to make the point that common sense is all you need to conduct a safe assessment before thinking you are capable of doing a recovery, I absolutely have to disagree with that. Common sense is not enough, certainly not enough to take risks with. Did the chap with the Crv use common sense to put himself in his position? As to whether there are a limited number of agencies that will turn out and support, that depends on whether there are risks to human life and well-being or not. If there are then everything will get switched on and come to the rescue, as to the hunk of metal, again, it all depends on where the hunk of metal is. If it is on a public road then commercial recovery teams will come out. If not, you takes your chances. As other posters said, in the latter case then it could well turn into a great opportunity for recovery teams from the LZIR to use it for training purposes and trained teams could train others as to how to do it. Just as MSA teams do. The more trained and fully equipped teams there are in the LZIR the better, but there will always be a huge majority of willing members with the time and desire to help others who will turn out to provide comfort, help with accommodation, food, drink, the loan of tools, the sourcing of parts and help with fitting them. This is exactly as it should be. Light recovery, within the capability of the person performing the operation, is also a possibility. But even then, the simple attaching of a tow rope in the proper manner and to the proper part of a vehicle is not obvious. Much damage can be done by a willing person who is keen to help. Winch cables in particular are dangerous things if anything goes wrong. I agree totally with your final statement, and would never wish to put anyone off from trying, in a safe way to help others.

    Finally my comment re insurance was purely for those thinking of doing MSA recovery for the MSA. It was a shock to us to find out that we were not covered especially when we knew the risks that we sometimes took. When the message "Vehicle upside down, people trapped, smoke coming from vehicle" comes over the radio, you do not stop to think, you go like the very devil to get to the vehicle. Travelling at huge speed in a Disco 1 van full of heavy recovery gear towing a jib, around a special stage, you are likely to have an "off" yourself, when speeding to potentially save life. Obviously commercial recovery people have proper insurance and no amateur would have it, or get it, unless they were properly trained and certificated. So all the remarks about insurance were tongue in cheek I am sure.
     
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  4. urena

    urena Well-Known Member

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    easy for me but would charge
     
  5. urena

    urena Well-Known Member

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  6. Stanleysteamer

    Stanleysteamer Well-Known Member

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    Quite right too, oh and anyone worried about getting paid to help people out, you are entitled to take expenses, i.e cost of fuel etc, that does not make you responsible for anything. Just as long as you do not charge a fee.
     
  7. urena

    urena Well-Known Member

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    I do it for a living
     
  8. blue beasty

    blue beasty Leaks an prone to bits dropping off Global Moderator

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    This is an old thread and largely as a consequence of it there has been a serious rethink of how LZIR offers help in the many forms it does of which recovery is one and an infrequent one at that.

    Discussion was had forum wide and with a small group with experience.

    Frankly those whose only, and repeated input is to slag off a community effort to support itself can go swivel.

    Constructive criticism is welcome but please be aware much has changed since this thread.
     
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  9. jamesmartin

    jamesmartin Well-Known Member

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    we have emergency services, unless your towing a mate out, the implied service will get someone into trouble,not least youd feel obliged to try and help
     
  10. dieseldog69

    dieseldog69 Well-Known Member LZIR Despatch Agent

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    This isn't a public service, it is, as far as I am aware, a members opportunity to call on the fellow Land Rover owning community for help when it goes Pete Tong, there is no obligation to help and certainly not a free to the world "giz a tow mate" service.

    From what I can gather it was set up with the aim of doing good for the forum members, it is however searchable on goggle so therefore some people have turned up to abuse it, it's not uncommon but it is of course at the discretion of all as to their level of participation, nobody is forced to go out there and take risks and certainly there is no pressure to do so either and the emphasis is on staying safe at all times and getting people out of harms way or if it's just a mishap then a quick tug with a tow rope.

    I never villified you, eggspurts is slang round ere ;)

    As stated, this isn't a full bore recovery service, it's supposed to complement the community and bring people who ordinarily wouldn't have passed on the highstreet together when in need of assistance.

    LZ is not just AG an b1tchin over postcode snobbery, it's about "your a pr1ck from Preston, but if you need a tow out of the ditch then I'm on my way".

    Some of us have done recovery courses and spent countless hundreds and often thousands on recovery kit, some of us have to use simple RAMS procedures as part of our daily lives as professionals and it will be some of us that are asked to cast an eye over proceedings and as always it comes down to the eyes and boots on the ground, no one is committed to recovery and should feel confident about simply making the call to pass recovery on to professionals.
     
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  11. urena

    urena Well-Known Member

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    just saying did one other week citreon relay van loaded gone way across grass path sank to axels
    member of public got involved with his new 4-4 2 hours latter and a burnt out clutch they decided to ring me had both out in 15 mins.
    they both have to pay for damage to grass + new clutch.
    moto is leave it to pro that knows what hes doing cheaper that way.
     
  12. Stanleysteamer

    Stanleysteamer Well-Known Member

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    Urena, yes I knew that, it was mentioned earlier in the thread. James is right too about implied service. Better to say "I have a tow rope." and wait for the other party to request help. Do not offer help directly. Still the LZIR forms should cover all this.
     
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  13. jamesmartin

    jamesmartin Well-Known Member

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    yes a first time poster wanting help and a forum expecting members too,no expectation there
     
  14. urena

    urena Well-Known Member

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    im all for helping folk but no good if 5 people get stuck and landys get damaged is it.
    tip for the day if any of you bastards get stuck remember it has to come out the way it went in.
    in this case backwards crawl down hill on road gone not up hill stuck sliding side ways in ditch.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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  15. dieseldog69

    dieseldog69 Well-Known Member LZIR Despatch Agent

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    You can always look at the contribution to the forum and say sorry but I'm waxing my legs tonight, I wouldn't hesitate to assess the situation and contribution and say "I'm out" without even getting my keys off the hook.

    It does.
    If in doubt, and as has been expressed many, many times, then call the professionals and the guy who got stuck can sell a kidney to get unstuck.

    If you are happy to attend and try to help then you do so with the knowledge that you are doing so at your own risk but to the benefit to the community.
     
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  16. blue beasty

    blue beasty Leaks an prone to bits dropping off Global Moderator

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    Again...

    We have changed the way we do things, you know this, you offered nothing more than repeating the above so why continue to grab any chance to be negative about LZIR?

    Nobody is obliged to sign up an interest or expected to respond to a request.

    Conversations are had in private about reservations in any situation and erring on the side of caution is encouraged.
     
  17. jamesmartin

    jamesmartin Well-Known Member

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    you could but after been asked in public youd probably try and run the risk,
     
  18. jamesmartin

    jamesmartin Well-Known Member

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    ive made my points of why,helping a lz mate is one thing pretending its a service is another and it is easy o say no one is obliged but they are in reality when your asking for it
     
  19. dieseldog69

    dieseldog69 Well-Known Member LZIR Despatch Agent

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    I've jacked jobs in that pay cold hard cash that feeds me and my family and keeps a roof over my head for being asked to do things that I'm not comfortable with, being asked on an open public forum to help a perfect stranger who has never posted anything and gone an got himself stuck halfway up a Welsh mountain and saying no isn't going to bother me very much at all.
     
  20. blue beasty

    blue beasty Leaks an prone to bits dropping off Global Moderator

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    I guess how we think about LZ as a community is simply very different.

    I appreciate you don't approve and think it's a bad idea but repeated negative comments about the concept don't improve anything.
     
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