So why does the engine-swap myth persist?

109SeriesIIA · Mar 23, 2019

So why does the engine-swap myth persist?

We all like an engine-swap don’t we?
The idea goes that ‘next weekend’ you can ‘bung-in’ an engine, and all for £600. There are exceptions, but most of you with experience know the reality. Do it properly costs the fun-side of three times what you’d think, and takes four times longer. Else, the finish sits with the other lash-ups seen on eBay most weeks.

Some things we like to deny, other things we liek ot over-estimate. What did yours really cost and how long did it really take?

kermit_rr · Mar 23, 2019

Bobsticle · Mar 23, 2019

109SeriesIIA said:
So why does the engine-swap myth persist?

We all like an engine-swap don’t we?
The idea goes that ‘next weekend’ you can ‘bung-in’ an engine, and all for £600. There are exceptions, but most of you with experience know the reality. Do it properly costs the fun-side of three times what you’d think, and takes four times longer. Else, the finish sits with the other lash-ups seen on eBay most weeks.

What does it really cost and how long does it actually take?

Its not a series without a series engine. Why actually have one if you dont like them. Best buy a Toyota.

Or a Gaylander.

109SeriesIIA · Mar 23, 2019

I've heard those that put Toyota lumps in, if that's your thing. Sorry if I'm not making this clear, i can type slower. These jobs never are quite as they appear. My question was how much does it really cost to do the typical swaps, all in. Time and money?

kermit_rr · Mar 23, 2019

Plenty of both
You do it because you like the idea of the vehicle, not the practicality of living with it

109SeriesIIA · Mar 23, 2019

Put a V8 in once, lashed-in. Engines are always the cheap bit. I'll deny it, but ask me straight, and it still cost me £1800-2000, and easily a month of weekends, maybe even longer all in. If I count the fettling to fine-tune even this lash-up, on and off, another month of weekends?

I'm counting the fittings, the new hoses, clutch, blah.... all the stuff 'on the turn', items you'd be silly not to do whilst you're in there.

If I'd done it 'right' I shudder to think. Nearer £3000 and three/ four times longer.

FlyingPete · Mar 23, 2019

You can get something in and 'running' in a weekend, but that doesn't mean you've done it right.
Factor in a major engine service while it's out as no doing so is stupid (unless you know the service history of the donor vehicle) and all the random parts you need to modify, replace or generally tinker about with, and it's a much longer job. If you want to do it properly anyway.

Easiest is a disco 200tdi into an early 90/110 as you can get all the conversion parts as a kit, but the engines themselves are all fairly ancient by now so even that's not worth contemplating without rebuilding the engine.

Colthebrummie · Mar 23, 2019

A like for like swap could be done in a weekend or even a day if you have a helper. I like those know-it-all DIY mechanics who insist replacing a clutch is a four hour job. I've done many clutch changes and it has always taken me a day, I could probably do it quicker if I had a vehicle lift and decent facilities. It often takes me at least an hour to find all the right tools, there is always one crucial tool that is missing for some unexplained reason. I now find it quicker to nip to tool station, halfords etc and buy the tool I can't find. That's why I have about ten pairs of circlip pliers somewhere.

Col

My Old Landy · Mar 23, 2019

Colthebrummie said:
It often takes me at least an hour to find all the right tools, there is always one crucial tool that is missing for some unexplained reason. I now find it quicker to nip to tool station, halfords etc and buy the tool I can't find.

This is something that I can relate to! I have just changed a central heating radiator (no different to a car to be fair, drain undo some pipes, change and refill

) and I told the mrs it would be a half hour job, two hours later its done

I think we like to kid ourselves its only a day / weekend job so as to convince ourselves its worth starting........

LordOWar · Mar 24, 2019

Colthebrummie said:
It often takes me at least an hour to find all the right tools, there is always one crucial tool that is missing for some unexplained reason. I now find it quicker to nip to tool station, halfords etc and buy the tool I can't find. That's why I have about ten pairs of circlip pliers somewhere.

Col

Ha that's nothing I can loose a spanner when sat infront of the item I am working on. And the best parts is 99 times out of 100 the tool is still hanging off what I was working on.

109SeriesIIA · Mar 24, 2019

Hallelujah, 'somebody' gets what I'm driving at. Only yesterday I was redoing a rivet-nut. Only it needs an 11mm drill. Biggest I had was 10mm. In the finish, a ten minute job had to stop, and (by the time I had travelled and bought the 'right' tool ) became 4-5 hours, and another £25.
I completely identify with the previous post. It can be done in four hours, but in the real-world, a clutch job DOES take all day. Easily.

So yesterday's Transfer box gaiter swap, looked like a tenner all-in to do. Three self-tappers right? Reality? Done right, all in, best part of £40. And a few rivet-nuts left over.

Which is where I came in, I tells ya, I do engine-swaps blindfold etc...

rob1miles · Mar 24, 2019

It doensn't end there. My series has an engine swap from the 1980s and it was done well, BUT, all the hoses are specials, the clutch is from who knows where, its going to be a right detective job as its 10", the radiator is a special - a 400 miles round trip to get a replacement, prpably the only one in the country and it was "collection in person..". Exhaust down pipe is being nursed along as its another "special" so while I'm more than happy to pay for a new exhaust they don't exist. Starter is non-LR and huge so it gets rebuilt and it took 2 of us 3 hours to change the front engine mounts (probably a 1 hour job with a std engine) because the conversion mounts had 1/4 clearance and socket head set screws. Would I advise anyone to do an engine swap, 100 % no. Engine swaps used to be fashionable in the 70s, a mate put a Hillman Imp engine in a Norton. After a massive amount of work, some serious engineering, what did he end up with, a dog, it was heavier, stopped worse, handled worse and went slightly faster in a stright line and was pretty much unsellabe.

cappers · Mar 24, 2019

My experience with a 90 2.5P LT77 to 3.5 V8 ZF4HP22 auto conversion
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/capos-90-2-5p-lt77-to-3-5v8-auto-conversion.341421/
and https://www.lrukforums.com/threads/3-5-v8-efi-from-a-k-reg-disco.232297/

it took 6 months
the various 'bits' needed to do the conversion came to more than the replacement engine and box
the cost, not including unanticipated welding, rewiring and MoT work, came to nearly 2x the budget.

There were lots of delays due to various missing parts, the need to fabricate a gearbox cross-member, various frames and brackets, exhaust, oil, water & air plumbing, dash rewire, foot well repairs, major chassis repairs and welding, plus some little jobs to get her through the MoT. Phil was also in the USA for two of those months and work came to a halt.

It's now 5 months and ~1500 miles since the job was completed, and ...knocking wood like mad....she's been totally trouble free (apart from a sticking Diff-Hi-Lo lever - I kept the LT230 rather than the BW). Starts on the button, temp steady and correct, smooth and much faster than my previous 3.5 on carbs, even with a slush-box, no leaks, fluid losses or funny noises. The 3.5 auto drives like a dream. I'm much impressed, it's just what I wanted, but it cost much more in terms of money and time than expected.

John S · Mar 24, 2019

I did mine about 12 years ago. Diesel back to petrol. Cost about £1,100. I had a donor landy which I took and got Turner Enginering to do the head for unleash. Scrapped the diesel and never looked back. Original engine is great. It’s a three bearing 1970’s . Done around 60k miles since. Change the oil regularly (mineral) and service annually.

109SeriesIIA · Mar 25, 2019

John S said:
I did mine about 12 years ago. Diesel back to petrol. Cost about £1,100. I had a donor landy which I took and got Turner Enginering to do the head for unleash. Scrapped the diesel and never looked back. Original engine is great. It’s a three bearing 1970’s . Done around 60k miles since. Change the oil regularly (mineral) and service annually.

To me that sounds as if it's a like-for-like job. My kind of sensible - if a swap is ever sensible? Where as 'Capo's' may well be sorted now, but would have been a real ordeal. But done right I'm sure 'tis brilliant. My fear? Even done well, what have got in the finish? A car with the 'wrong' engine.
Whatever it costs you, about the same be will the knock you'll take selling it. Your bill is thus say £1500-2000 minimum for the swap, and the same again knocked off resale. So the real cost is £1500-2000 x 2. £4000 anyone? And we won't count your time.

In fact as I said before, the more worthwhile your wagon before the swap, the worse the hit is when you're done. If your vehicle isn't worthwhile, then oddly, the swap makes slightly more sense.

I've done my fair share of swaps, and as said, I'll leave it to memories of the 70s. Yes you can plonk in an engine. The result might be all you hoped, but then again.

I started this thread due to start a minor swap. Forced into it...
I suppose you could call it a swap, because already in a leafer I've got a tired 5MB 2.5 Petrol. But into a leafer, a 2.5 Petrol is the easiest swap in the world. Like-for-like it really does plop in. Needs a rebore and grind etc soon.. I want it to be £800, but then I'm dreaming. Not helped by me wanting ACR's 2.8 pistons, I reckon I'll be lucky to see that done for much under £1700. So I 'm a sucker really.

Nonetheless I for one would like to hear of the real time / costs of doing these, from those that wouldn't do it again - and those that would.

Because that's the crucial question. Knowing now, would you do another?

cappers · Mar 25, 2019

109SeriesIIA said:
Where as 'Capo's' may well be sorted now, but would have been a real ordeal. But done right I'm sure 'tis brilliant. My fear? Even done well, what have got in the finish? A car with the 'wrong' engine.

It was a bit of a trial, but I didn't go into it with my eyes closed; to me it was worth every minute and penny and as a keeper I'm not concerned about resale values. I disagree with your last sentence though, 90/110s and some Defenders had V8 engines, the 50th Anniversary model, Japanese and NAS spec had V8 autos, so hardly the 'wrong' engine apart from not being a 3.9/4.0.

109SeriesIIA said:
Because that's the crucial question. Knowing now, would you do another?

In the past I did a 3.5 carb to 3.9 efi swap in a 90 which was much easier than a 2.5 LT77 to 3.5 ZF4 in a 90. As I love V8s in a Landy I would do it again if need be BUT I would want the complete donor vehicle, not just engine and box.

300bhp/ton · Mar 25, 2019

109SeriesIIA said:
I've heard those that put Toyota lumps in, if that's your thing. Sorry if I'm not making this clear, i can type slower. These jobs never are quite as they appear. My question was how much does it really cost to do the typical swaps, all in. Time and money?

I'm not sure what "myth" you are referring too.

Also what do you mean by "typical swaps". There is a lot of choice. And nothing is really typical. And even the more common engines, there are a million different ways to convert. So they aren't all the same either.

I put a 200Tdi in my Series III 88. In total I spent just over £3200, but I had it all planned out and costed on a spreadsheet. Total cost was very close to what I estimated.

This cost also included a replacement chassis (not new, but a repaired used one). Plus a PAS conversion and a custom suspension upgrade and some other items such as new door tops (Rocky Mountain Spares).

Build thread here:
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/200tdi-s3-88-pas-long-travel-suspension-rebuild.298104/

tottot · Mar 25, 2019

Just the sort of stuff I did to my 2a years ago. Good fun to do and you learn a lot as well.

Not an arm and a leg when you compare what boy racers spend on hot chicken chasers.

Turboman · Mar 25, 2019

109SeriesIIA said:
So why does the engine-swap myth persist?

We all like an engine-swap don’t we?
The idea goes that ‘next weekend’ you can ‘bung-in’ an engine, and all for £600. There are exceptions, but most of you with experience know the reality. Do it properly costs the fun-side of three times what you’d think, and takes four times longer. Else, the finish sits with the other lash-ups seen on eBay most weeks.

Some things we like to deny, other things we liek ot over-estimate. What did yours really cost and how long did it really take?

Because things are a fairly broad church, and individual circumstances differ.
A few hypothetical case studies.

First off, consider someone who has an old, but tidy original Series One. They would be crazy to put a non standard engine in it, so they just leave it as is, and run it. No cost, no labour.

Then we move on, someone who has a tatty Series 3, with a blown engine. But it so happens that they work in a garage as a mechanic, and their boss has a good Rover v8 lying around, and will let them use all the garage facilities at weekends to do the swap. Total cost, a few days labour for the owner, and a few hundred quid for the engine.

Case study three. An owner with a good Series 3, they have no practical skills, and are determined to fit a powerful modern diesel and autobox. They decide to get a garage to supply and fit the engine and trans, as they are not short of the money. That is likely to set them back knocking on 10 grand.

Horses for courses.

cappers · Mar 25, 2019

The joy of Landys is that one can easily customise them. I'm not really concerned with originality per se and having the conversion done ended up with a Landy with the spec that I wanted. All told, for less than 10k I have a practically refurbished Landy with loads of new parts and the cost includes the host vehicle, donor parts, mainly new ancillaries and labour.

So why does the engine-swap myth persist?

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