SMS / Tilt

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Ian.V

Member
Posts
67
Location
Nottingham
Evenin’ all

2005 - LR3

Anyone know if there’s any correlation between the SRS and the Tilt sensors.

After tolerating the SRS warning light for several weeks and following all the usual checks mentioned in the various forum I arranged to see a highly recommended auto electrician.

On arrival he asked me to pull up to the front of his garage which happened to be a steep concrete ramp.

We had a quick chat before he climbed in and switched the ignition on. “Which light are we talking about”? he asked.

I stuck my head in and pointed to where the light had been on for several weeks. Of course it wasn’t on!!

“Well it’s going to be more difficult to find the fault if it’s not showing but I’ll check the codes anyway” He proceeded to run diagnostic checks with a variety of scanners, one of which apparently cost him £4000!!

All readings were normal.

We agreed that the best option was to wait until the fault reappeared, and check again.

I left feeling completely bemused and within a couple of miles the fault reappeared, but it was too late to go back at that stage.

I’ve not yet had the opportunity to simulate the conditions but I’ll probably go back and park in the same place ASAP. In the meantime, anyone have any experience of a similar situation?

I would estimate the angle of the ramp to be between 30o - 40o

Many thanks in advance.
 
If the light is still on replicate the slope at the sparky if it goes out drive and if comes on repeat again.
 
Nope. There isn't (or shouldn't be) any correlation between the Supplementary Restraint System (SRS) and what I presume you mean by the "tilt sensors", the Active Cornering Enhancement or ACE. The sensors for the body lean are normally referred to as the "Upper and lower accelerometers". If you mean the sensors on the Self Levelling Suspension (SLS), the answer is still no. Those sensors are normally called the "Ride height sensors".
The SRS is a stand-alone system comprising of the two airbags, driver's and passenger's, the seat belt pre-tensioners, the DCU and the little light on the dashboard.
 
Nope. There isn't (or shouldn't be) any correlation between the Supplementary Restraint System (SRS) and what I presume you mean by the "tilt sensors", the Active Cornering Enhancement or ACE. The sensors for the body lean are normally referred to as the "Upper and lower accelerometers". If you mean the sensors on the Self Levelling Suspension (SLS), the answer is still no. Those sensors are normally called the "Ride height sensors".
The SRS is a stand-alone system comprising of the two airbags, driver's and passenger's, the seat belt pre-tensioners, the DCU and the little light on the dashboard.

remember this when i had to trace my SRS fault light , inc all 8 x airbags , lol



DA2F9294-FBEF-47E5-96FA-78ED36FAF916.jpeg
 
Thanks for that.
Sorry for being vague about the tilt sensors but I was just thinking of any sensor that could possibly be affected by parking on a steep slope
 

Hi @Ian.V

i did indeed trace the fault , was an airbag fault, sounds simple now but by god it made me work for it, lol

once an srs light comes up it should log a fault code, i think ur best bet would be to book it into ur local land rover dealer or a land rover specialist

i personally bought a gap iid diagnostic reader which allowed me to see the live data of each airbag , alas they are £420 quid but pay for itself very quickly

as believe me without one u might start pulling ur hair out

assume you’ve checked all the usual areas first, ie under the seats etc, moved the wires on the seat belt tensioners , it will be the yellow wire underneath the seat

if i may say, make sure u don’t try and connect or disconnect any airbag wire with the battery still connected and waiting for a min of 30 x mins, nor never ever put a multimeter onto any airbag as it can cause it to fire

could be the steering wheel rotary coupling , pre tensioner wires , or at the connector block under the seat

plse let us know how u get on

PS, these were the readings i got so knew i had an error and allowed me to start tracing them

40BFC79E-F7BB-4FF9-8CD2-6C8735EA7230.png
 
Last edited:
@Ian.V here is some info for u in how it all works, An RCM is a Restraints Control Module

The RCM is installed on the top of the transmission tunnel, in line with the B pillars, and controls operation of the SRS. The main functions of the RCM include:

Crash detection and recording.
Air bag and pretensioner firing.
Self test and system monitoring, with status indication via the SRS warning lamp and non volatile storage of fault information.
A safing sensor in the RCM provides confirmation of an impact to verify if air bag and pretensioner activation is necessary. A roll-over sensor monitors the lateral attitude of the vehicle. Various firing strategies are employed by the RCM to ensure that during an accident only the appropriate air bags and pretensioners are fired. The firing strategy used also depends on the inputs from the safety belt switches and the occupant monitoring system.

An energy reserve in the RCM ensures there is always a minimum of 150 milliseconds of stored energy available if the power supply from the ignition switch is disrupted during a crash. The stored energy is sufficient to produce firing signals for the driver air bag, the passenger air bag and the safety belt pretensioners.

When the ignition is switched on the RCM performs a self test and then performs cyclical monitoring of the system. If a fault is detected the RCM stores a related fault code and illuminates the SRS warning indicator. The faults can be retrieved by the Land Rover approved diagnostic system on a dedicated link between the RCM and the diagnostic socket. If a fault that could cause a false fire signal is detected, the RCM disables the respective firing circuit, and keeps it disabled during a crash event.

SRS OPERATION

General

In a collision, the sudden deceleration or acceleration is measured by the safing sensor in the RCM and by the impact sensors. The RCM evaluates the readings to determine the impact point on the vehicle and whether the deceleration/acceleration readings exceed the limits for firing any of the air bags or pretensioners. During a collision, the RCM only fires the air bags and pretensioners if the safing sensor confirms that the data from the remote sensor(s) indicates an impact limit has been exceeded. The RCM also monitors the vehicle for a roll-over accident using the internal roll-over sensor and high speed CAN bus messages from the anti-lock brake system (ABS) module and the steering angle sensor.

The RCM incorporates the following impact thresholds to cater for different accident scenarios:

Front impact, pretensioners.
Front impact, driver and passenger air bags stage 1, belt unfastened.
Front impact, driver and passenger air bags stage 2, belt unfastened.
Front impact, driver and passenger air bags stage 1, belt fastened.
Front impact, driver and passenger air bags stage 2, belt fastened.
Rear impact.
LH side impact.
RH side impact.
Roll-over.
The front impact thresholds increase in severity from pretensioners, through to driver and passenger air bag stage 2, belt fastened.

Firing Strategies
The seat belt pretensioners are fired when either the pretensioner impact limit or the roll-over limit is exceeded. The RCM only fires the pretensioners if the related safety belt is fastened. For the front passenger pretensioner to fire, the seat must also be occupied by a large person, i.e. someone over a given weight (NAS only).

The driver and passenger air bags are only fired in a frontal impact that exceeds the stage 1 threshold. Both stages of the inflator in the driver and passenger air bags are fired. At impacts between the stage 1 and 2 thresholds, the delay between the firing of the two stages varies with the severity of the impact; the more severe the impact the shorter the delay. At stage 2 impact thresholds and above, the two stages of the inflator are fired almost simultaneously. The passenger air bag is disabled unless the front passenger seat is occupied by a large person (NAS only), or the passenger air bag deactivation switch is on (all except NAS). The time delay between firing the two stages of the inflator in the driver air bag is increased if the driver seat is forward of the seat position sensor switching point.

If there is a fault with a safety belt buckle sensor, the RCM assumes the related safety belt is fastened for the pretensioner firing strategy and unfastened for the driver and passenger air bag firing strategies. If there is a fault with the occupant detection system, or if there is a fault with the passenger air bag deactivation switch, the RCM increase the time delay between firing the two stages of the inflator in the passenger air bag.

If a side impact limit is exceeded, the RCM fires the side air bag and the side air curtain(s) on that side of the vehicle. If the side impact limit on the front passenger side of the vehicle is exceeded, the RCM also evaluates the input from the occupant classification system, and fires the side air bag only if the front passenger seat is occupied by a large person (NAS only).

The side air curtain(s) on both sides of the vehicle are fired if the roll-over limit is exceeded.

If multiple impacts occur during a crash event, after responding to the primary impact the RCM will output the appropriate fire signals in response to any further impacts if unfired units are available.

Crash Signal

When the RCM outputs any of the fire signals, it also outputs a hard wired crash signal to the Engine Control Module (ECM) and changes the high speed CAN bus output message from 'no crash' to 'crash condition'. The high speed CAN bus message is used by the central junction box (CJB) and the FFBH (fuel fired booster heater).

On receipt of the crash signals:

The engine control module (ECM) disables the fuel pump.
Operation of the FFBH is disabled.
The CJB enters the crash mode and:
Activates all of the unlock signals of the vehicle locking system, even if the vehicle is already unlocked. After 3 seconds, the CJB activates the unlock signals again, in case a lock button is pressed during the crash, by flailing limbs for example.
Ignores all locking and superlocking inputs until the crash mode is cancelled, when it returns the locking system to normal operation.
Activates all of the courtesy lamps, except for the approach lamps. The activated courtesy lamps remain on until they are manually switched off at the lamp unit, or the CJB crash mode is cancelled, when they return to normal operation.
Activates the hazard warning lamps. The hazard warning lamps remain on until cancelled by turning the ignition switch from position II to position I or 0, or until the crash mode is cancelled.
The crash mode is cancelled by cycling the ignition switch.just for some information
 
Last edited:
@Ian.V here is some info for u in how it all works, An RCM is a Restraints Control Module

The RCM is installed on the top of the transmission tunnel, in line with the B pillars, and controls operation of the SRS. The main functions of the RCM include:

Crash detection and recording.
Air bag and pretensioner firing.
Self test and system monitoring, with status indication via the SRS warning lamp and non volatile storage of fault information.
A safing sensor in the RCM provides confirmation of an impact to verify if air bag and pretensioner activation is necessary. A roll-over sensor monitors the lateral attitude of the vehicle. Various firing strategies are employed by the RCM to ensure that during an accident only the appropriate air bags and pretensioners are fired. The firing strategy used also depends on the inputs from the safety belt switches and the occupant monitoring system.

An energy reserve in the RCM ensures there is always a minimum of 150 milliseconds of stored energy available if the power supply from the ignition switch is disrupted during a crash. The stored energy is sufficient to produce firing signals for the driver air bag, the passenger air bag and the safety belt pretensioners.

When the ignition is switched on the RCM performs a self test and then performs cyclical monitoring of the system. If a fault is detected the RCM stores a related fault code and illuminates the SRS warning indicator. The faults can be retrieved by the Land Rover approved diagnostic system on a dedicated link between the RCM and the diagnostic socket. If a fault that could cause a false fire signal is detected, the RCM disables the respective firing circuit, and keeps it disabled during a crash event.

SRS OPERATION

General

In a collision, the sudden deceleration or acceleration is measured by the safing sensor in the RCM and by the impact sensors. The RCM evaluates the readings to determine the impact point on the vehicle and whether the deceleration/acceleration readings exceed the limits for firing any of the air bags or pretensioners. During a collision, the RCM only fires the air bags and pretensioners if the safing sensor confirms that the data from the remote sensor(s) indicates an impact limit has been exceeded. The RCM also monitors the vehicle for a roll-over accident using the internal roll-over sensor and high speed CAN bus messages from the anti-lock brake system (ABS) module and the steering angle sensor.

The RCM incorporates the following impact thresholds to cater for different accident scenarios:

Front impact, pretensioners.
Front impact, driver and passenger air bags stage 1, belt unfastened.
Front impact, driver and passenger air bags stage 2, belt unfastened.
Front impact, driver and passenger air bags stage 1, belt fastened.
Front impact, driver and passenger air bags stage 2, belt fastened.
Rear impact.
LH side impact.
RH side impact.
Roll-over.
The front impact thresholds increase in severity from pretensioners, through to driver and passenger air bag stage 2, belt fastened.

Firing Strategies
The seat belt pretensioners are fired when either the pretensioner impact limit or the roll-over limit is exceeded. The RCM only fires the pretensioners if the related safety belt is fastened. For the front passenger pretensioner to fire, the seat must also be occupied by a large person, i.e. someone over a given weight (NAS only).

The driver and passenger air bags are only fired in a frontal impact that exceeds the stage 1 threshold. Both stages of the inflator in the driver and passenger air bags are fired. At impacts between the stage 1 and 2 thresholds, the delay between the firing of the two stages varies with the severity of the impact; the more severe the impact the shorter the delay. At stage 2 impact thresholds and above, the two stages of the inflator are fired almost simultaneously. The passenger air bag is disabled unless the front passenger seat is occupied by a large person (NAS only), or the passenger air bag deactivation switch is on (all except NAS). The time delay between firing the two stages of the inflator in the driver air bag is increased if the driver seat is forward of the seat position sensor switching point.

If there is a fault with a safety belt buckle sensor, the RCM assumes the related safety belt is fastened for the pretensioner firing strategy and unfastened for the driver and passenger air bag firing strategies. If there is a fault with the occupant detection system, or if there is a fault with the passenger air bag deactivation switch, the RCM increase the time delay between firing the two stages of the inflator in the passenger air bag.

If a side impact limit is exceeded, the RCM fires the side air bag and the side air curtain(s) on that side of the vehicle. If the side impact limit on the front passenger side of the vehicle is exceeded, the RCM also evaluates the input from the occupant classification system, and fires the side air bag only if the front passenger seat is occupied by a large person (NAS only).

The side air curtain(s) on both sides of the vehicle are fired if the roll-over limit is exceeded.

If multiple impacts occur during a crash event, after responding to the primary impact the RCM will output the appropriate fire signals in response to any further impacts if unfired units are available.

Crash Signal

When the RCM outputs any of the fire signals, it also outputs a hard wired crash signal to the Engine Control Module (ECM) and changes the high speed CAN bus output message from 'no crash' to 'crash condition'. The high speed CAN bus message is used by the central junction box (CJB) and the FFBH (fuel fired booster heater).

On receipt of the crash signals:

The engine control module (ECM) disables the fuel pump.
Operation of the FFBH is disabled.
The CJB enters the crash mode and:
Activates all of the unlock signals of the vehicle locking system, even if the vehicle is already unlocked. After 3 seconds, the CJB activates the unlock signals again, in case a lock button is pressed during the crash, by flailing limbs for example.
Ignores all locking and superlocking inputs until the crash mode is cancelled, when it returns the locking system to normal operation.
Activates all of the courtesy lamps, except for the approach lamps. The activated courtesy lamps remain on until they are manually switched off at the lamp unit, or the CJB crash mode is cancelled, when they return to normal operation.
Activates the hazard warning lamps. The hazard warning lamps remain on until cancelled by turning the ignition switch from position II to position I or 0, or until the crash mode is cancelled.
The crash mode is cancelled by cycling the ignition switch.just for some information


Thanks for all replies especially all the comprehensive technical info.


Yes I had checked all the connectors under the seats previously and I actually found one that wasn’t pushed fully home. When it clicked into place I thought ‘Eureka’ that’s obviously the problem.

Most people will recognise the feeling of disappointment when it didn’t make any difference!

Since my last post I’ve been back to the sparky’s and parked in the same place. This time the light stayed on so I think I’ll put that down to coincidence.

Anyway I decided to invest in a scanner and as I also have a Defender I sourced a dedicated Landrover/Jaguar tool for £99.

The initial scan came up with a fault code relating to the drivers airbag deployment control.

Rather than write the info down I took pics on my phone. Unfortunately I’ve left my phone at my daughters so can’t attach at present.

Next job remove airbag and have a look.

Thanks all

Will keep you posted.
 
Thanks for all replies especially all the comprehensive technical info.


Yes I had checked all the connectors under the seats previously and I actually found one that wasn’t pushed fully home. When it clicked into place I thought ‘Eureka’ that’s obviously the problem.

Most people will recognise the feeling of disappointment when it didn’t make any difference!

Since my last post I’ve been back to the sparky’s and parked in the same place. This time the light stayed on so I think I’ll put that down to coincidence.

Anyway I decided to invest in a scanner and as I also have a Defender I sourced a dedicated Landrover/Jaguar tool for £99.

The initial scan came up with a fault code relating to the drivers airbag deployment control.

Rather than write the info down I took pics on my phone. Unfortunately I’ve left my phone at my daughters so can’t attach at present.

Next job remove airbag and have a look.

Thanks all

Will keep you posted.

Hi ian

looks like the auto electrician needs to get a new diagnostic reader, lol

thought there had to be a code and good u found it , sounds like it may be ur clock spring

did it show up a history of faults

not wishing to sound disrespectful or insult ur intelligence , do u know u need a hook tool to remove the steering wheel airbag

if u need more info, plse feel free to ask and can find u some links ref the clock spring
 
Hi ian

looks like the auto electrician needs to get a new diagnostic reader, lol

thought there had to be a code and good u found it , sounds like it may be ur clock spring

did it show up a history of faults

not wishing to sound disrespectful or insult ur intelligence , do u know u need a hook tool to remove the steering wheel airbag

if u need more info, plse feel free to ask and can find u some links ref the clock spring

Hi, (Don’t know your name & won’t call you Grandad as I’m much older than you are!!)

Yes I noticed you need a tool to remove the airbag but I think I could make one.

If the fault is confirmed to be in the driver’s airbag deployment system, I think this scanner is probably well on the way to paying for itself.

Incidentally I’ve tried to find a definitive answer to the question of the effect on the audio system when disconnecting the battery.

I’ve seen conflicting statements saying “Yes, you need the radio code” and “No, the info is permanently held in the ECU”

I’ll probably be tackling this job at the weekend and will keep you posted.

Thanks again
 
Hi, (Don’t know your name & won’t call you Grandad as I’m much older than you are!!)

Yes I noticed you need a tool to remove the airbag but I think I could make one.

If the fault is confirmed to be in the driver’s airbag deployment system, I think this scanner is probably well on the way to paying for itself.

Incidentally I’ve tried to find a definitive answer to the question of the effect on the audio system when disconnecting the battery.

I’ve seen conflicting statements saying “Yes, you need the radio code” and “No, the info is permanently held in the ECU”

I’ll probably be tackling this job at the weekend and will keep you posted.

Thanks again

feel old already being a middle aged grandad , lol

haven’t heard anything about a radio code, unless maybe if an aftermarket one had been fitted

yes plse , let us know how u get on , can do a quick test via a multimeter on the clock spring , need to wait 30 x mins after disconnecting ur battery before removing the airbag

might just be a loose wife in the connectors as it’s intermittent , also ref the clock spring u sometimes get an indication of it failing when the steering wheel controls don’t always work, ie the cruise and radio buttons

PS, for a useless bit of info a LR3 is the american version, D3 is the uk version ;)
 
feel old already being a middle aged grandad , lol

haven’t heard anything about a radio code, unless maybe if an aftermarket one had been fitted

yes plse , let us know how u get on , can do a quick test via a multimeter on the clock spring , need to wait 30 x mins after disconnecting ur battery before removing the airbag

might just be a loose wife in the connectors as it’s intermittent , also ref the clock spring u sometimes get an indication of it failing when the steering wheel controls don’t always work, ie the cruise and radio buttons

PS, for a useless bit of info a LR3 is the american version, D3 is the uk version ;)


Gary
A neighbour asked me to demonstrate the diagnostic tool. When checking the SRS system it displayed the same error code. I deleted it again and the light went out as before but this time, following several short journeys it has yet to come back on.

I guess it’s an intermittent fault and will eventually reappear, but until it does I’ll be putting the job on hold. Unless I have time on my hands when I could at least check the clock spring with a meter to eliminate one possibility. Are we talking a continuity test?

I actually had a few minutes to spare today so thought I’d browse some of your posts and I learnt quite a bit about the D3, (another lesson learned) and even discovered your name!!

It’s obvious that you have considerable experience and knowledge of the model. I’m not someone who always takes the easy option and I will usually try to research a problem before asking, but if I’m ever stuck I will drop you a post if that’s ok.

Regarding my earlier question (well researched but no definitive answer found) regarding the battery/radio issue, I’ll take it that you have never had any problems following a battery disconnection.

I love this vehicle, especially for long journeys, but anybody of a nervous or pessimistic disposition probably drives along waiting for the dreaded ‘Ping’ as a yet another warning light pops up!

Thanks
 
Gary
A neighbour asked me to demonstrate the diagnostic tool. When checking the SRS system it displayed the same error code. I deleted it again and the light went out as before but this time, following several short journeys it has yet to come back on.

I guess it’s an intermittent fault and will eventually reappear, but until it does I’ll be putting the job on hold. Unless I have time on my hands when I could at least check the clock spring with a meter to eliminate one possibility. Are we talking a continuity test?

I actually had a few minutes to spare today so thought I’d browse some of your posts and I learnt quite a bit about the D3, (another lesson learned) and even discovered your name!!

It’s obvious that you have considerable experience and knowledge of the model. I’m not someone who always takes the easy option and I will usually try to research a problem before asking, but if I’m ever stuck I will drop you a post if that’s ok.

Regarding my earlier question (well researched but no definitive answer found) regarding the battery/radio issue, I’ll take it that you have never had any problems following a battery disconnection.

I love this vehicle, especially for long journeys, but anybody of a nervous or pessimistic disposition probably drives along waiting for the dreaded ‘Ping’ as a yet another warning light pops up!

Thanks

Hi, ur more than welcome and always happy to pass on knowledge that i’ve gained, bought mine a year ago as a project and has been interesting going through it and sorting things out , lol

did u see i put some service guides and a buyers guide in the discovery section which i hope may help in the future

indeed never had a problem with disconnecting the battery ref radio codes , never been displayed to ask for one

think once you’ve eliminated the clock spring at least then u can make some progress with that srs light

have done a lot of updates on mine, ie upgraded the front seats from manual to electric, that was good fun but well worth it

must admit do like the iid diagnostic reader i’ve got , in its ability and ease of use

plse feel free to ask anytime and is good helping other fellow LZ members

look forward to what u find ref the srs light
 
Hi, ur more than welcome and always happy to pass on knowledge that i’ve gained, bought mine a year ago as a project and has been interesting going through it and sorting things out , lol

did u see i put some service guides and a buyers guide in the discovery section which i hope may help in the future

indeed never had a problem with disconnecting the battery ref radio codes , never been displayed to ask for one

think once you’ve eliminated the clock spring at least then u can make some progress with that srs light

have done a lot of updates on mine, ie upgraded the front seats from manual to electric, that was good fun but well worth it

must admit do like the iid diagnostic reader i’ve got , in its ability and ease of use

plse feel free to ask anytime and is good helping other fellow LZ members

look forward to what u find ref the srs light


Yes Gary, I read your buyer’s guide and service info.

Very helpful, especially for anyone hanging their nose over one.

I was interested in the oil pump cover issue. Not sure how alarmed I should be.

You’ve done a hell of lot in a year then! Looking at the photo of your strip down of the interior I can’t make out what beverage was in the cup/mug in the boot area and wondered if any alcohol was involved to help you along!!.

I’ve had mine over three years and all I’ve done is replace window rubbers, spare wheel carrier, wiper blades, rear PDC harness & replaced interior bulbs with LED.

Had all 4 wheels aligned due to uneven tyre wear?
 
Yes Gary, I read your buyer’s guide and service info.

Very helpful, especially for anyone hanging their nose over one.

I was interested in the oil pump cover issue. Not sure how alarmed I should be.

You’ve done a hell of lot in a year then! Looking at the photo of your strip down of the interior I can’t make out what beverage was in the cup/mug in the boot area and wondered if any alcohol was involved to help you along!!.

I’ve had mine over three years and all I’ve done is replace window rubbers, spare wheel carrier, wiper blades, rear PDC harness & replaced interior bulbs with LED.

Had all 4 wheels aligned due to uneven tyre wear?

hi

the oil pump cover became a problem with breaking from 2007 onwards, however even in 2005 there has been reports of them also breaking

at the same time of my front and rear belts being replaced , oil pump cover was also done , inc the water pump seeing everything was off

have done a lot , inc suspension, air tank, new tyres all round, cooper at/3

wishbones and front struts next year , have gone through this with a fine tooth comb and put right all the bodges so at least then once done it will just be the service items each year

drink was plain old tea, drinks in the evening to recover, lol

may i ask have u got a spare wheel protection plate , as they are renowned for getting pinched
 
hi

the oil pump cover became a problem with breaking from 2007 onwards, however even in 2005 there has been reports of them also breaking

at the same time of my front and rear belts being replaced , oil pump cover was also done , inc the water pump seeing everything was off

have done a lot , inc suspension, air tank, new tyres all round, cooper at/3

wishbones and front struts next year , have gone through this with a fine tooth comb and put right all the bodges so at least then once done it will just be the service items each year

drink was plain old tea, drinks in the evening to recover, lol

may i ask have u got a spare wheel protection plate , as they are renowned for getting pinched


Good tip re. Spare wheel protection, I hadn’t seen those before. Certainly worth considering.

You obviously realised I meant ‘Replaced spare wheel winch mechanism’.

I’m really lucky regarding my location & parking but just as an added security measure I park my Defender next to the D3 as bait. lol

Not really wise as I’d be hard pressed to choose between the two vehicles if I had to lose one.

They’re more likely to be stolen by the government via a huge tax hike, saving us all the worry!
 
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