Setting pump lift with DTi

TERRYDONTSURF said:

Cheers for your input chap. I think i am asking fairly reqsonable/sensible Qs- no need to get emotional over it.
Am au fiat with how to tinker with the pump settings, was just hoping that someone, somewhere would have an actual quantifiable number. Increasing plunger lift to 1.6 is less than 4%ish. By using 'rods' of various sizes that could be put in at different angles ( not withstanding numerous parallax angles I'd instructions were given) then it becomes all a bit unrefined and the 'optimal' that is spoken of becomes all a bit haphazard.
We haven't even started on pulse timing yet

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using decreasing size drill bits through timing pin slot and turning pump pulley nut clockwise against it is as good as any way of doing it ,the perfect advance will be different for most engines ,so by setting just before knock will be as good as you will get whether you use trail and error by dti or drill bit ,you could just turn pulley in relation to pump but holding against a series of reducing pins is easier and more precise

Drill bits? :|

Glb8686 said:

Drill bits? :|

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Yes the shank of the drill bit

Engineered HSS in different reducing diameters - please keep up

they come in handy .5 mm differing sizes

James hadn't posted when I typed my reply. Although I've not seen anything regarding using Drill bits to adjust the pump. Links?

Do a search - its been covered loads of times..............

Glb8686 said:

James hadn't posted when I typed my reply. Although I've not seen anything regarding using Drill bits to adjust the pump. Links?

Click to expand...

i set the pumps that way when i do cam belt change to ensure engines running at its optimum ,most with noticeable power increase,some not as std pin is at optimum already

Glb8686 said:

James hadn't posted when I typed my reply. Although I've not seen anything regarding using Drill bits to adjust the pump. Links?

Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKnK0kJ1N-o

This video shows how to lock off the flywheel and injection pump, also shows how to check the timing is correct and adjust the injection pump if it isn't......................... the timing we are talking about is adjusting the pump for optimum timing without diesel knock. Using smaller diameter drill bits as timing pins (the normal timing pin is 9mm) so start with 9mm to check you timing is correctly set up using both locking pins.............. Ensure the pulley bolts are tight then remove the locking pins from the pump and flywheel............ run the engine to see if you get diesel knock - you shouldn't as you have set it with the 9mm locking pin

Then again lock the flywheel and put the 8.5mm drill bit shank in to the locking hole of the pump (through the timing cover hole) loosen the 3 bolts and using a 22mm socket turn the bolt to the right to advance the timing of the pump, so that the 8.5mm drill bit is a close sliding fit in the timing pin hole - then tighten the 3 pump pulley bolts. Remove both locking pins from the flywheel and pump and run the engine - listen for diesel knock. If there is no knock do the same with the 8mm drill bit etc......... until you get diesel knock THEN move back up a drill bit size - YOUR pump is then optimally timed to YOUR engine

Write down the size of drill bit that gave you the optimal timing position for the pump so that when you check the timing/change timing belt etc you can set it to the optimal position for YOUR engine

phew........ took me a while to type all of that

Will this work on the later auto models with the TPS, air flow meter and ecu?

I know you can't do the normal tweaks but wondered if you could advance the timing for an improvement.

more than likely later engines use more sensors to judge/adjust timing ,the v8 uses knock sensors to fine tune 300 edc is pretty basic

You should be able to mate as james says the edc system is pretty basic but does get a signal from no4 injector - if it doesn't like it due to the edc just time it back to 9mm with the timing pin...... sorted

Working out:

centre of pump spindle to centre of timing pin 25mm (approx)
9mm - 8.5mm = 0.5mm
Angle of degrees per 0.5mm = 1.14576 degrees

So moving from the standard 9mm timing pin to 8.5mm equates to an advance over standard settings of 1.14576 degrees

Left hand edge of timing pin:
Standard timing with 9mm timing pin will be 19.7988 degrees BTDC
Tweaked timing with 8.5mm timing pin will be 18.6531 degrees BTDC
Tweaked timing with 8mm timing pin will be 17.5073 degrees BTDC

Centre of timing pin:
Standard timing with 9mm timing pin will be 14.6428 degrees BTDC
Tweaked timing with 8.5mm timing pin will be 13.4970 degrees BTDC
Tweaked timing with 8mm timing pin will be 12.3512 degrees BTDC

Right hand edge of timing pin:
Standard timing with 9mm timing pin will be 9.4869 degrees BTDC
Tweaked timing with 8.5mm timing pin will be 8.3411 degrees BTDC
Tweaked timing with 8mm timing pin will be 7.1953 degrees BTDC

DEFENDER90-DAZ said:

Working out:

centre of pump spindle to centre of timing pin 25mm (approx)
9mm - 8.5mm = 0.5mm
Angle of degrees per 0.5mm = 1.14576 degrees

So moving from the standard 9mm timing pin to 8.5mm equates to an advance over standard settings of 1.14576 degrees

Left hand edge of timing pin:
Standard timing with 9mm timing pin will be 19.7988 degrees BTDC
Tweaked timing with 8.5mm timing pin will be 18.6531 degrees BTDC
Tweaked timing with 8mm timing pin will be 17.5073 degrees BTDC

Centre of timing pin:
Standard timing with 9mm timing pin will be 14.6428 degrees BTDC
Tweaked timing with 8.5mm timing pin will be 13.4970 degrees BTDC
Tweaked timing with 8mm timing pin will be 12.3512 degrees BTDC

Right hand edge of timing pin:
Standard timing with 9mm timing pin will be 9.4869 degrees BTDC
Tweaked timing with 8.5mm timing pin will be 8.3411 degrees BTDC
Tweaked timing with 8mm timing pin will be 7.1953 degrees BTDC

Click to expand...

At last, this is the 5hit I'm talking about willis!
However, it relies on whoever puts the drill bit in not being a gipper and putting it in straight ( as per previous parallax comment) and understanding your above post about how the position of a 8mm pin say can effect timing.

Daz, after giving it some thought I think I might do it as per factory then not do anything until I have done pulse timing to see how much the factory timing differs from that set at plunger on a worn pump

Sound like a plan?

Oh, just one more thing..............

Anyone got the Bosch part number of an auto pump? Just wondering if rotor heads differ in size? (Some marques fit bigger rotor head to the auto)

no it doesnt as you turn pump agaisnt the the pin and as such pin will angle slightly but that doesnt matter as its still an easy graduated way of finding just before knock point

jamesmartin said:

no it doesnt as you turn pump agaisnt the the pin and as such pin will angle slightly

Click to expand...

So no it doesn't but then does when it angles slightly?


This thread is rapidly becoming hard work and straying away from the original Q! I was/am looking for a direct answer as to if anyone had any hard and fast numbers that are achieved in some sort of quantifiable way.
Everyone has there own way of doing things and I am looking at doing it without wiggling drill bits about that don't fit.
As Dazs numbers have shown there can be some difference on one size drill bit and as James has agreed they do angle. If one looks at the 8mm pin to left/middle/right then consider the amount of degrees variation , it does not take much to be off from where you want to be.
Underpinning all this is the condition of the pump, hence my interest in pursuing pulse timing to actually see what plunger lift on a worn pump actually equates to in real terms.

I do not want this to be a dick waving exercise on who is right/wrong etc. I am not into that 5hit. I enjoy the technical side of life and fortunately have the resources to 'tinker' to find some numbers, what works, what doesn't etc etc











Failing that, copper face until it knocks then rubber mallet back until it stops!

no its not that hit a miss each time you fit that bit it will be at that precise point which is no different to marking degrees on pulley and using that except the spring in rotating pump means holding against a pin is easier,and all anyone wants is to work their way to the optimum point of timing for particular set of factors in a particular engine ,cam timing will differ slightly as well as exact compression ratio etc

If its not hit and miss then presumably you have a quantifiable way of achieving and measuring the results?

As previous, i want/like to find out 'numbers' as this will help qualify the results more than the Mk1 Seat of Pants Dyno.

depends what your trying to achieve optimum running taking into account all variables or an academic exercise

You can not see how 'optimal running' as you put it, is achieved even thr the application of very basic maths/science/academia?

You (third person narrative) do it on a daily basis, constantly. Do you know that?

Optimal running and 'academia' of sorts go hand in hand. I am more than happy doing it how i wish to do it, as i am sure as you are.

James , i am bowing out of my own thread now chap as getting involved in counter constructive debates is not for me.