Problem with Brakes, Discovery 2 TD5

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Was the problem there before all of the changes ?
Is it both brake pads on each of the problem brakes or only 1 ?
If only 1 pad, it could be a sticking / misaligned caliper or caliper carrier.
If both, potentially pressure is being trapped in the brake system & not be released to the reservoir.
If you take a wheel off on each of the problem corners can you force the piston in so that fluid returns to the reservoir ?
If not, maybe the mastercylinder is faulty or the brake servo or brake pedal is stuck down.

PS I should have started with a different question : Do you have the ability to work on your own car ?
If not, you will have significant problems with this type of issue. It requires logical fault finding skills that any "good" garage should have (but many do not !). However, it could be expensive as it may require a lot of time to work through the potential causes.
Many garages lose interest in this type of problem because the believe the owner will not pay the full amount for all of the labour time involved.


Dear Paul,
thanks a lot for your questions and support.

It is both brake pads on each of the brakes.
The pressure measure as well as the infrared temperature measurements after test drives where perfect.

Yes, I can force the pistons in, and the fluid returns to the reservoir.
No, it is not the mastercylinder, we double checked that, the brake servo as well as the brake pedal work as the should.

I can work on my car, but I'm not an expert. Such a complicated issue is for me to search for the needle in haystack.
So, I pendent of some professional mechanics. Thanks for the note, that it could be expensive to find the fault. I hope it will not be the case... let's cross fingers.

Again, I appreciate your thoughts.
Thank you
 
Did they replace the slide pins when they replaced the calipers as new calipers are no good without the slide pin kits being replaced as well. The new calipers will just stick if they didn't? Plus did they replace the flexi hoses or just metal brake pipes. Flexi hoses can delaminate internally and act as a one-way valve in the brake system making the brakes bind.

Dear Interceptorxj,
yes, the slide pin kits were changed as well.
the metal brake pipes remained, but we changed the Flexi hoses at all 4 wheels.
 
Interesting this as you did say you had replaced callipers and master cylinder.
I am going to make the slightly rash assumption that all the new parts were "good". and fitted properly, as @lynall mentioned this may need checking.

If you replaced the callipers, the guide pins should have been replaced at the same time. If not replace these or take them out and clean them up. I had one more or less rust into place, but once taken out and all the rust cleaned off it worked fine. Doubtful guide pins on opposite corners of the vehicle would go at the same time, but not impossible.

It is odd that 2 callipers are doing this. The chances of two flexi hoses delaminating at the same time same very low to me.
EDIT, I'm an idiot did not notice till now that you have replaced 4 brake lines. Did you mean flexis or the solid lines? If the solids than you can ignore the latter part of this post.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
I think the fault must lie in the pipes connecting the master cylinder to the two callipers, forming a one way valve.

I don't know because I have never had to investigate this, but they may connect into one somewhere? Saabs used to separate the dual braking system that way, but most manufacturers do it so one line is front brakes and the other is the rears.

Anyway, I'd follow all the brake lines back to the master cylinder, disconnect them from the flexis )and see if there is a blockage of some sort. A bit of a seal or something may have worked its way down from the old master cylinder, into the pipe(s) and be causing the problem.
If you can pump air or fluid in both directions, collecting the old fluid in a jar or something, you may see some offending material come out.

If it is this, it should be a relatively cheap fix. no longer any point in chucking money, by replacing parts, at the problem.

I suppose it is faintly possible that a pipe may have rusted internally and a shard of rust is causing the same problem.
Best of luck with it.
. .


Dear Stanleysteamer,

thanks a lot for your time and your thoughts.
we have the pressure measure system for the brakes lines. and we could blow air in both directions, but there was no material coming out of the lines.

And yes, the guide pins where replaced as well.

But I have to mention, that the solid lines are rusty, but even though we could change the flexis. Was a bit a challenge without breaking the solid lines, but it worked. But the chance, that the have rusted internally is possible. We have to double check that.

Thanks a lot for your support. Appreciate that a lot.
 
As the master cylinder is new the modulator becomes quite suspect in this case cos the circuit splits within it to diagonal operation and it seems that the problem is only with the primary circuit(6a), it's possible that the inlet valves for that circuit to be sticky and when the pedal is released the caliper can't disengage well due to backpressure. I can's see a way to rule it out other than replacing the modulator . Eventually find a place where you can use HDC and let it work few times cos then the modulator is under shocks and maybe it gets unstuck. Was the system power bled with diagnostic tool ? when the master cylinder is changed this is compulsory for a proper modulator activity. The schemes should be relevant

View attachment 228795 View attachment 228796

Dear Sierrafery,
thank you very much for your help.
your suggestion to replace the ABS Modulator is what I was afraid of. But if we don't another solution, I will change the ABS modulator.
thanks also for the schemes. helps. Appreciate that very much.
 
I want to apologize to all of you, that I was not able to reply earlier to all your comments. My aunt had a broken appendix and needed an express surgery. Fortunately, all went well.

I'm more then gratefull and appreciate any comment and help.

I have got a lot of input, and I'm going to check everything. As soon as I have found the reason for the brake problem, I will write detailed what I have done. At the moment it looks like the problem is the ABS modulator, unfortunately not the low-price solution. :(
 
This is what I meant by "properly installed".
Even before the days of electronics interfering with braking, split circuit braking systems had valves that needed to be taken into consideration when bleeding brakes, changing fluid, etc, etc.
But actually I am sure this is going to turn out to be where the problem lies. either improper installation or a sticky or jammed or bust modulator.
Such a shame you spent so much money and time on all the other stuff.

Yes, it is sad that I spent the money. true. But at the end, I hope it is worth it, as the list of possible causes is getting smaller.
 
Dear Stanleysteamer,
But I have to mention, that the solid lines are rusty, but even though we could change the flexis. Was a bit a challenge without breaking the solid lines, but it worked. But the chance, that the have rusted internally is possible. We have to double check that.

Marco, sorry to bring bad news, but if the solid brake lines are rusty then they should be replaced. I don't think that internal rust would be likely, but the potential for the external rust to weaken the pipe enough for the internal pressure to force a rupture leading to a catastrophic brake failure, is significant. In the UK rust on brake pipes would almost certainly cause the vehicle to fail it's annual MOT (UK roadworthiness test).
 
Marco, sorry to bring bad news, but if the solid brake lines are rusty then they should be replaced. I don't think that internal rust would be likely, but the potential for the external rust to weaken the pipe enough for the internal pressure to force a rupture leading to a catastrophic brake failure, is significant. In the UK rust on brake pipes would almost certainly cause the vehicle to fail it's annual MOT (UK roadworthiness test).
+1^

If you have the relatively simple gear to make them up, you can make your own out of Kunifer, and they won't rust.
https://www.google.com/search?q=kun...0l3j0i395l3.2159j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
A brake pipe flaring tool for copper doesn't have to be as strong.
Us in the kit car game make them up all the time.
Or elses you get pros to make them up or you buy a set.
That's about it really.

Altho it may be possible to just replace the rusty bits by cutting and inserting new steel pipe.
But if you do that agin you'll need to make the flared ends.
 
A brake pipe with rust on it should not fail a mot. An "excessively" corroded brake pipe will fail a mot.

A brake pipe will not rust inside unless there is oxygen and moisture in the pipe....unlikley if you have brakes.

Replacing a rusty pipe will not fix your problem....better to stick to one thing at a time :)

Do you not think if all parts are new and it has been to 3 seperate workshops to be checked and all brakes have the same temp after a test drive that there might not actually be anything wrong :)
 
A brake pipe with rust on it should not fail a mot. An "excessively" corroded brake pipe will fail a mot.

A brake pipe will not rust inside unless there is oxygen and moisture in the pipe....unlikley if you have brakes.

Replacing a rusty pipe will not fix your problem....better to stick to one thing at a time :)
Agree with all of this except that brake-fluid is hygroscopic thus with poor maintenance it is possible for water to gather in the pipes.
Theoretically therefore it is possible for a pipe to rust through from the intside.
But if there is that much water in the pipes the brakes will prolly not be working very well at all.:eek:
As for the rest of it I think we have narrowed the problem down to the modulator. He's changed nearly everything else!
 
Theoretically a green man from mars could have landed and sabataged the brakes....again unlikely if you have brakes.

But go ahead and replace all the rusted on the inside brake pipes if you like...you might aswell do it when you change the modulator that way youll only have to bleed the system once.

Maybe the 2 you think are working correctly are the faulty ones...maybe worn wheel bearings pushing the pads back :)
 
Theoretically a green man from mars could have landed and sabataged the brakes....again unlikely if you have brakes.

But go ahead and replace all the rusted on the inside brake pipes if you like...you might aswell do it when you change the modulator that way youll only have to bleed the system once.

Maybe the 2 you think are working correctly are the faulty ones...maybe worn wheel bearings pushing the pads back :)
Mate I'm not the OP with the problem, just the poster with the sense of humour!;)
But doubt both wheel bearings would go, a/ at the same time and b/ without setting off the 3 amigos.;)
 
Mine had a similar issue last year... Front left and rear right calipers stuck on. Luckily I was only 1/4 mile away from home, so I loosened off the pipes to these from the master cylinder and limped home. One hand on the handbrake. Replaced the master cylinder, and that fixed it. I did notice you had already done this though...
 
Mate I'm not the OP with the problem, just the poster with the sense of humour!;)
But doubt both wheel bearings would go, a/ at the same time and b/ without setting off the 3 amigos.

I know :)

I just think its amusing that and were now at the brake pipes rusting on the inside....FFs the chassis of a disco will be long gone before the brake pipes rust from the inside. :)

The list at the beginning doesn't mention discs....so new pads on old discs and everything is supposed to sit perfectly. Start with the obvious :)
 
I know :)

I just think its amusing that and were now at the brake pipes rusting on the inside....FFs the chassis of a disco will be long gone before the brake pipes rust from the inside. :)

The list at the beginning doesn't mention discs....so new pads on old discs and everything is supposed to sit perfectly. Start with the obvious :)
So you change discs every time you change pads? FFS. OCD or what! If they are cracked, scored, too thin or rusty OK, but if not why?
As for the brake pipes, I did say THEORETICALLY.
Brake lines get air in, otherwise why would you bleed them? Fact.
Brake lines get water in them. Brake fluid is hygroscopic. Fact
Brake lines are made of steel. Fact.
As you said it takes all three of these to cause rust.
If a car is stored for a long time in this condition, i.e. with air and water in the brake lines. It could happen, even if stored indoors.
Get off your high horse and drink your milk!;)
 
Mine had a similar issue last year... Front left and rear right calipers stuck on. Luckily I was only 1/4 mile away from home, so I loosened off the pipes to these from the master cylinder and limped home. One hand on the handbrake. Replaced the master cylinder, and that fixed it. I did notice you had already done this though...

I tend to agree with you and I do think that there is no direct evidence yet that the ABS mod is suspect. If I were the OP, I would connect the master cylinder directly to the brake lines leading to the binding calipers (one on the primary port & one the secondary port) and see what happens. You can either use the old flexi pipes to bridge between pipes or simply connect the corresponding brake tubes on the ABS mod with female to female adapters.

Note : Do not carry out road tests with this configuration. Only applicable for garage testing.
 
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