Power steering for a Series 3 - help please

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Blackotter

Member
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18
I am planning to rebuild my 1972 Series 3 109 on a galvanised chassis. At the same time, I would like to incorporate power steering. I gather the reason it cannot be retr0-fitted to a Series 3 chassis is that the front cross member is too far back.
Has anyone done this before and knows how far forward the cross member neeeds to be moved in order to get the power steering in?
Would really appreciate your advice. Many thanks
 
I am planning to rebuild my 1972 Series 3 109 on a galvanised chassis. At the same time, I would like to incorporate power steering. I gather the reason it cannot be retr0-fitted to a Series 3 chassis is that the front cross member is too far back.
Has anyone done this before and knows how far forward the cross member neeeds to be moved in order to get the power steering in?
Would really appreciate your advice. Many thanks

It might be worth contacting a few replacement chassis manufacturers to ask them what it would cost for them to make up a custom chassis with attachment points for a coil sprung Land-Rover power steering box, that way it would all look neat as the mods would be galvanized too. I suppose a downside of doing that is that strictly speaking you could fall foul of the DVLA rules on rebuilt vehicles retaining their identity, because your chassis would no longer be standard spec.

I'd leave the steering standard - there is less to go wrong and I think heavy, vague steering contributes to the charm of a series Land-Rover anyway.
 
Give the PS a miss mate, the LR PS steering boxes always start leaking which is an MOT failure and it ends up costing yer a lot o money and grief.

If you got 7.5 x 16 road tyres on the steering shouldn't be too bad, its the bigger ones that make it hard work
 
Hi,

Pics on the S2 Club forum indicate that the steering box wants to go where the front cross member is welded on. Solution seems to be to cut a few inches out of the X-member, and weld it, or something that looks like it, 3" further forward. to stop the bit that is left sagging.

Presumably you could just weld a complete X-member 3" further foreward, and hang the rad support brakets on the back of it. Fit an apron, and nobody will ever know.

602
 
Moving the front cross member forward and then drilling and sleeving the chassis side leg to mount the PAS box was the old way of doing it when there was just the points system to worry about. Not so sure now-a-days.

However, as has been said even on 750s the steering isn't that heavy if properly rebuilt/maintained. I used to RTV a Series on 750s and never had PAS.
 
I suppose a downside of doing that is that strictly speaking you could fall foul of the DVLA rules on rebuilt vehicles retaining their identity, because your chassis would no longer be standard spec.

Absolutely; rules state direct like-for like replacement, un-modified chassis.

Hack one about, whether you get the maker to do it, or whether you DIY, you would NOT have a qualifying chassis, and by the letter of the rules, SVA would deem it not the originally registered vehicle, demand a Q-plate and loss of Historic Vehicle Status

Presumably you could just weld a complete X-member 3" further foreward, and hang the rad support brakets on the back of it. Fit an apron, and nobody will ever know.

Err.... yeah..... you know that tax evasion is a rather seriouse crime, dont you?

Practically........

Giving the idea a miss would be a good one, series sterring if properly sorted is very nice, and even with wide tyres shouldnt NEED power assistance.

But there are ways and means and some ways are better than others, so have a long hard thing about it before considering the options, and the SVA & HVS implications.

Using a coiler PAS box is not a great idea the whole steering linkage is different.

On a coiler PAS box sits on the inside of the drivers side chassis rail, about where the cross member is on a series chassis, with a jointed shaft running to the steering wheel through the bulkhead, and a long drop arm working the shorter radius arm on the nearside swivil directly.

On a series the steering box is on a leg off the outside of the chassis, with a long shaft coming straght out of the box to the steering wheel, a drop arm working vertically acting on a drag link to a relay in the front cross member.

Now, the series and coiler axles are different widths; so, if you mounted coiler PAS box as on a series chassis rail, first the coiler drag link would be too long, and the series drag link too short.

You would have to put the PAS box where the relay would be in the front X-member and use the series drag link.... HOWEVER, you'd then have the problem that the run of the steering column would br rather awklward and not doable with stock parts, while the lever ratio's between PAS box drop arm and series akkerman arm would be rather too high.

You could try and mount coiler PAS box on series steering box bracket, and use an abreviated steering column off the input shaft, with the drop arm working vertically, as that's length is closer to that on the end of the series box, and it would much more closely mimick the series set-up, but i dont know how the coiler PAS box would like being turned through 90 degrees wrt the oil levels and the like!

Scratching it; if you google Terri-ann Wakeman's site, she has a nice example of a PAS conversion using an international Harvester steering box, and a defender steering column, which is the model for many suggested PAS conversions, using plant steering boxes.

Last two alternatives are the 'electric' steering column idea mentioned on here before, using bits salvaged from a scrap hatch-back or one of the proprietry kits of e-bay....

Suggestion is that they can be fitted up to the existing steering column shaft leaving everything else as is. But while it looks a nice idea, some number crunching also suggests that they dont have the 'grunt' to do anything very useful.

Other notion is Chris Perfect a few years ago offered a horendousely expensive, but quite useful auxilliary ram, PAS system, that was a complet ebolt on kit, leaving the series steering essentially standard, fitting a hydraulic ram to give assistance where a steering damper might be added.

Good, simple, expensive, and no longer available... though you might chase one down second hand on e-bay or something, and Paul Haystee in holland might stil be able to supply them new, or at least the components, if you ask him nicely.

HOWEVER..... the CAUTION I would seriousely advice is this:-

IF you modify the steering IN ANY WAY..... go SVA.

I think that you loose one point for non original steering by the ident rules point system, which oin its own isn't enough to loose historic vehicles status or demand re-registration.

BUT it IS a 'Safety Critical System', and no matter how much common sense, reasoned argument or good workmanship we apply, SVA is the ultimane buck-stopper, should there be any question over the vehicle integrity when modded.

Its an assurance that would answer a loty of silly questions by insurance companies; and heaven forbid we should ever have to, but IF unlucky enough, silly Q's by plod of lawyers!

And with a Tax Exampt Landy; Even if you restore it ABSO-BLUDY-LUTELY standard, with all the finger pointing at Tax Exempt landies and the challenges to thier HVS made on teh forums, sticking one in for SVA, with a build book, and getting a letter back on VOSA headed paper telling you THAT vehicle has been evaluated and not deemed to need SVA and they agree its still the vehicle originally registered and NOT modified sufficiently to need safety inspection HAS to be a very good insurance against the tax man, and a sales tool, if and when you come to sell it on..... basically you can give the buyer catagoric assurance of what they are getting and that its fully legit.

Sorry to be harping on, but I REALLY want to try and sell SVA as a tool we need to start looking at as our 'freind' rather than a niggling bit of red-tape hassle, and using it to our advantage, rather than trying to avoid it.
 
Hi,

Does moving the front X-member forward 3" count as a RADICAL change, and even if it does, does it matter if you are not doing a REBUILD (being pedantic).

602
 
Hi,

Does moving the front X-member forward 3" count as a RADICAL change, and even if it does, does it matter if you are not doing a REBUILD (being pedantic).

602

doesn't matter whether you are doing a rebuild or not, a mod is a mod and any changes to the 'structural member' ie the chassis of a land-rover are deemed to be a Radical Alteration, and should be subjkect to SVA or RAV test....

and as said, we should be looking to use SVA to our advantage, rather than trying to avoid it, bottom line is to declare the mod to VOSA and let them give you the definative answer as to whether it bothers them.

It probably wont, but we should NOT presume.......

Reason for going SVA after a rebuild, is to get similar approval from VOSA on the vehicle and catagoric declaration HVS and tax exemption isn't void.

Whether on a new chassis or with an old one made 'good' with plate and sections, to my mind doesn't really matter; decalre it, and if they are worried about ident or structural integrity you get an official, unequivicol, answer on the car, that means IF the worst comes to, no-one can grumble at you that the vehicle shouldn't have been on the road, becouse it was 'cobbled together' from 'old scrap', badly modified, or NOT the car that was originally registered on that number-plate.
 
Last two alternatives are the 'electric' steering column idea mentioned on here before, using bits salvaged from a scrap hatch-back or one of the proprietry kits of e-bay....

Suggestion is that they can be fitted up to the existing steering column shaft leaving everything else as is. But while it looks a nice idea, some number crunching also suggests that they dont have the 'grunt' to do anything very useful.

i'd be very interested in this number crunching you mention

using the inline servo leccy column from a corsa has long been the preferred route to take for fitting PS to many a kit car - I've fitted one to a S3 a few moons ago (and no i don't have any pictures) and will be fitting one to the S3 that's currently on my drive - farther in law also has one fitted to his Gardner Douglas Cobra replica where it's doing sterling work

GD Mk3 - Gardner Douglas Sports Cars

you do need the ECU if you are going to fit these, plus a little box of tricks to kid the ECU that the speed sensors are still connected - this little box of tricks can be used to either turn the PS on/off - or just to provide assistance based on load
 
i'd be very interested in this number crunching you mention

If you use the search function on here, theres a detail post on it, but essentially, series have recirculating ball steering not rack and pinion, and probably three or four times the weight on the front axle as anything originally intended to run the electric boost system.

Power wise, you can run a 3hp hydraulic winch off the PAS pump for a coiler, suggesting thats the kind of 'beef' its steering needs.

Ecectric steering run off a 30a supply will only deliver about 150W of power, which isn't even in the same county, let alone the same ball-park as suggested need for a Land Rover, and not far of the max delivery the alternator could supply it with!

Yeah, some assistance has got to be better than none, and I suppose that the amount of power given a coiler PAS system is probably over engineered a few legues in anticipation of heavy off-road work, in 90% of situations, probably unnecessary and the electrical system can give some helpful assistance parking at sainsburies or such, but cross axled in heavy rutted mud, I suspect it would probably fry its circuits!
 
If you use the search function on here, theres a detail post on it, but essentially, series have recirculating ball steering not rack and pinion, and probably three or four times the weight on the front axle as anything originally intended to run the electric boost system.

Power wise, you can run a 3hp hydraulic winch off the PAS pump for a coiler, suggesting thats the kind of 'beef' its steering needs.

Ecectric steering run off a 30a supply will only deliver about 150W of power, which isn't even in the same county, let alone the same ball-park as suggested need for a Land Rover, and not far of the max delivery the alternator could supply it with!

Yeah, some assistance has got to be better than none, and I suppose that the amount of power given a coiler PAS system is probably over engineered a few legues in anticipation of heavy off-road work, in 90% of situations, probably unnecessary and the electrical system can give some helpful assistance parking at sainsburies or such, but cross axled in heavy rutted mud, I suspect it would probably fry its circuits!

that isn't number crunching, thats coming to a conclusion based on your and other peoples thoughts

"I suspect it would probably fry its circuits!" - rubbish - out in the real world it's a proven system - years worth of doing RTV days and it's still going strong - visit any of the kit car forums and you'll see just how large a vehicle they get fitted to - the corsa unit is massively more powerfully than is needed for a corsa sized vehicle

.... and they generally sell for around 50 squid !
 
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that isn't number crunching, thats coming to a conclusion based on your and other peoples thoughts

"I suspect it would probably fry its circuits!" - rubbish - out in the real world it's a proven system - years worth of doing RTV days and it's still going strong - visit any of the kit car forums and you'll see just how large a vehicle they get fitted to - the corsa unit is massively more powerfully than is needed for a corsa sized vehicle

.... and they generally sell for around 50 squid !

As said, if you use the search facility, you'll find my evaluation of the things, including the development history I was a part of when they were being designed by Lucas ARD; and the 'number crunching' IS a valid comparitor, to show the huge gulf in the two systems capabilities.
 
I've looked at electric steering from a couple of production cars, and they are not powerfull enough, 150 watts from a vauxhall unit would assist, however the hydraulic pump is gonna be operating at max pressure all the time which is not good for reliability, some hydraulic systems operate at constant pressure, and others at constant volume, steering systems tend to be constant volume which work harder when the forces on the steering are greater, maximum force all the time is gonna shorten the life somewhat, Tother thing is prod eps systems tend to be designed for rack and pinion steering, the landy is a quadrant, it might work but you might find after weeks of fannying fitting it the things doesnt work well, you might be able to get an aftermarket electric assist kit, but there gonna be dear, that said it would be the way to go if your gonna do it, as moving the front member or bashing the axle is a radical mod and puts you in line with the sva and all that crap as well as removing a load of the originality of the vehicle.
 
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Yup, that's the Terri-Cnne Wakeman 'Scratch' conversion, I mentioned in my original post; note that it is Left Hand Drive, you'd have to scratch build something similar but reversed for a RHD vehicle.

That's the Chris Perfect Kit; obviousely Paul's put it back together.
Of all the variouse options, this is an expensive one, but on a HVS vehicle, probably the better one to go for.
Its an entirely auxilliary 'bolt-on' accessory, that doesn't demand chassis mods or anything else likely to impair HVS elegibility, or originality.
Takes a lot of 'hassle' out of the problem too; as you dont have to fathom how to do things from scratch, and I am pretty sure that everything Paul offers is usually 'approved' either via original type approval or independent accessory TUV testing; though its a question I'd ask, and again, even though its a bolt on, If I did it, I'd write to VOSA, with pictures and Pauls sales blurb, and ask them if I needed SVA if for no other reason than to get a letter back on VOSA headed note-paper saying 'No'.
 
Cool, the linear cylinder is probably the way to go, the other design a rotary actuator as frighfully expensive when you need spares or repairs.
 
Thanks guys for your helpful comments. When I raised this issue, I thought it would be a straight forward matter but, clearly it isn't! I have been in touch with DVLA regarding the interpretation of the Guidelines in NIF26 - for registration of a rebuild etc. Their repsonse leads to another thread I'm opening which I hope will be of interest to many. Thanks again. Blackotter
 
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