P38 non starting

I do not want to fool anyone, I have not posted on here for a while as every time it has gone wrong, a search of the old posts has always found the answer... until now

She will not start, not even try, just turns over for 20 secs until battery flat. The dreaded easy start has no effect.

tests done :

fuel pump working - check
fuel reaching filter - check
fuel reaching injector pump - check
fuel from injector pump (pipe off injector) - FAIL
Solenoid working - check
plunger removed from solenoid so fuel will go straight to injector - FAIL
Fuel returning to tank from injector pump - FAIL

all the above tell me injector pump failure, but what is in there to go wrong? is there some electrical gizmo in there other than solenoid as I was working on finding the electrical drain three days before failure and had to put in the code with the ignition key 20 or so times before it accepted.

on the night before it failed to start, when I started it up to go home from work it spluttered and stopped, it took a bit of cranking to get it going then ran like ****e for 30 seconds before running as normal.

I had changed all heater plugs the week before so she was starting instantly up until then.

Any ideas greatly appreciated, any suggestions for where to get a cheap (ha ha ha - did I really write that?) injector pump also gratefully accepted.

Sounds like loss of sync to me from the BeCM to the Engines ECU....

If it only cranked for 20 seconds and the battery is flat I'd be looking at the battery and alternator, they don't run with no volts. Low cranking speed will also prevent starting.
another possibility as it spluttered to a stop is bacterial growth in the tank.
You say you are getting fuel to the FIP, but are you getting a strong enough flow?
If it will not fire on easy start, then low cranking speed has to be a strong favorite unless the cam chain has jumped.
As SaintV8 said it could also be loss of sync but if the stop solenoid has been removed you should get fuel through.

Get it on diagnostics. Either it has lost sync or you have a major injection pump fault. Or the pump is just full of air. To get it out. Open all the injectors and turn it over, close them as you get fuel. But you will need a battery capable of more than 20 seconds cranking.

Thaks guys,

In answer to V8, my local independent came out to check sync, all ok, no diagnostic readings saying anything wrong.

In answer to Datatek, the alternator is only two weeks old, when it went on me I had 4 miles to get home so side light only I limped home but may have seen off the battery in the process. After I put the new alternator on it drained the battery every night so I think the battery is kaput.

It was cranking over fast enough - I had the battery on charge all night and also had my jump starter connected for extra oomph.

I am still running on bio fuel and NOTHING will live in a tank full of fuel (including fuel pumps..)

I have had it taken on a low loader to my local independent's garage and he is going to drop test the battery tomorrow. I will have him connect his big jump starter to it and try it on easy start but he also thinks the issue is with the pump. I would just like to try everything before sending the pump for overhaul at circa £600

lil4399 said:

Thaks guys,

In answer to V8, my local independent came out to check sync, all ok, no diagnostic readings saying anything wrong.

In answer to Datatek, the alternator is only two weeks old, when it went on me I had 4 miles to get home so side light only I limped home but may have seen off the battery in the process. After I put the new alternator on it drained the battery every night so I think the battery is kaput.

It was cranking over fast enough - I had the battery on charge all night and also had my jump starter connected for extra oomph.

I am still running on bio fuel and NOTHING will live in a tank full of fuel (including fuel pumps..)

I have had it taken on a low loader to my local independent's garage and he is going to drop test the battery tomorrow. I will have him connect his big jump starter to it and try it on easy start but he also thinks the issue is with the pump. I would just like to try everything before sending the pump for overhaul at circa £600

Click to expand...

Think you may have answered your own question. If there is anything wrong with the pump that caused it to stop there should be fault codes present. There are only a few things that can cause it to stop running, one is the stop solenoid not working, one is the fuel quantity solenoid not working the others are the internals of the pump could be lacquered with nasty bio diesel or the crank sensor and number four injector have failed at the same time.

Cheers Wammers, I have yet to see the bio fuel coat anything - quiet the opposite it is like paint stripper! one crossover pipe rotted with it and it took all the black paint off the rocker cover. On the positive side it is much more powerful on the bio fuel than diesel.

Is there a way to check the crank sensor? what do the sensor and No. 4 injector have in common? there is no fuel coming out of all the injectors.

Crank sensor can be checked using either live data or on a scope.

No4 sensor and crank sensor are used to time the start of injection cycle....

The ECU monitors crank position and when needle 4 lifts if the two are out slightly, it moves the pump to retime the injection timing to ensure a clean and efficient burn.

During cold cranking, I think the ECU ignores the crank position until the engine starts, and then uses it to a) ensure engine is still running and b) to time the injection cycle....

Some say the engine should cough and attempt to start with a dodgy crank sensor and others say it won't start at all....

Whatever else is wrong, it should fire on easy start sprayed into the manifold. If it doesn't, either the cam timing is out or it's cranking too slowly. You don't even need the glowplugs to be working.

Saint.V8 said:

Crank sensor can be checked using either live data or on a scope.

No4 sensor and crank sensor are used to time the start of injection cycle....

The ECU monitors crank position and when needle 4 lifts if the two are out slightly, it moves the pump to retime the injection timing to ensure a clean and efficient burn.

During cold cranking, I think the ECU ignores the crank position until the engine starts, and then uses it to a) ensure engine is still running and b) to time the injection cycle....

Some say the engine should cough and attempt to start with a dodgy crank sensor and others say it won't start at all....

Click to expand...

Engine should run in limp mode if CPS fails. Engine speed signals would then come from needle sensor.

wammers said:

Engine should run in limp mode if CPS fails. Engine speed signals would then come from needle sensor.

Click to expand...

Tony, I agree it will continue to run if the CPS fails whilst the engine is running, but I'm not sure it's possible to start it

Datatek said:

Tony, I agree it will continue to run if the CPS fails whilst the engine is running, but I'm not sure it's possible to start it

Click to expand...

Why should you not be able to? Injection is mechanical unless a duff CPS inhibits the fuel quantity solenoid at start up, the engine should run. But in limp mode.

wammers said:

Why should you not be able to? Injection is mechanical unless a duff CPS inhibits the fuel quantity solenoid at start up, the engine should run. But in limp mode.

Click to expand...

Reading RAVE, the Start cycle uses the ECT, CPS, Fuel temp and TPS....

Perhaps with the CPS out, the signal from the No4 isn't necessarily a good indication of whereabouts in the cycle the start of injection is in relation to the crank position....

Saint.V8 said:

Reading RAVE, the Start cycle uses the ECT, CPS, Fuel temp and TPS....

Perhaps with the CPS out, the signal from the No4 isn't necessarily a good indication of whereabouts in the cycle the start of injection is in relation to the crank position....

Click to expand...

Injection is mechanical. The pump piston is moved forwards in relation to it's connection to the crank shaft no matter what the CPS says. Timing of that piston movement is changed a little by internal pump pressure and the timing solenoid under certain conditions. But as long as fuel is not shut off and the quantity servo is active the engine should fire.

Some really useful info guys, much appreciated. Will go to the Garage this afternoon and get them to put the biggest battery they have on it, and use quick start to get it to fire, if nothing happens I will have to suspect something (major) mechanical is the cause and whip out the injector pump.

saw a couple on fleabay last night but would prefer to get one from somewhere "known" - any suggestions?

Thanks again for all the help.

lil4399 said:

Some really useful info guys, much appreciated. Will go to the Garage this afternoon and get them to put the biggest battery they have on it, and use quick start to get it to fire, if nothing happens I will have to suspect something (major) mechanical is the cause and whip out the injector pump.

saw a couple on fleabay last night but would prefer to get one from somewhere "known" - any suggestions?

Thanks again for all the help.

Click to expand...

Diesel fuel pumps and diesel injectors service repair by PF Jones

UPDATE

Call from garage today, they have swapped the module unit (?) on the injector pump and vroom! not sure what the module unit does, but everyone else bear this in mind before ripping out the injector pump.

Battery test came up that battery was fine so they are looking at it now to check it sleeps correctly or other battery drains so I should have it back for the summer... lol

Thanks again guys fr the support.

If they mean the electronic unit on the side of the pump i find it strange nothing came up on diagnostics. Try and find out exactly what it was they changed. Good info to have.

wammers said:

If they mean the electronic unit on the side of the pump i find it strange nothing came up on diagnostics. Try and find out exactly what it was they changed. Good info to have.

Click to expand...

Will do, I will then post the info. :cool2: