P38 immobiliser problems again - maybe ?

My turn now ...

Well I’ve had a dead car on the drive for a couple of weeks now; have done most things suggested, without success. The story so far:-

First sign something was wrong was all indicators permanently on one night – car was unlocked and no siren. Remote locked the car and indicators turned off.

Next morning alarm went off for no apparent reason – remote unlocked the car and all OK. Later that day all the indicators came on again (no alarm). Remote locked an unlocked and all OK except – will not start. “ENGINE DISABLED” message displayed.

Tried EKA procedure - no luck - repeaters flash when the key is turned anti-clockwise (lock) but not when turned clockwise (unlock) so probably a contact problem in the lock mechanism there as well (see below for other locking problems).

Tried connecting battery with ignition in Position 2 – no luck – all doors, bonnet, tailgate etc. closed. Loads of “NOT SET” messages (removed without a problem) but still dead.

Replaced fusebox since I saw someone with the same symptoms as me track it down to bad connections inside the fusebox (I’ve had RL7 overheating etc. but repaired and now replaced). All fuses and relays seem OK.

Strange thing is – remote syncs with the car and locks / unlocks everything except front (left) passenger door – this is new – normally everything locks / unlocks OK. I’ve got the inner panel off the passenger door and can’t see any problems but I'm in new territory here so don't really know what I'm looking for. If I manually lock the passenger door by pushing the interior knob down then all doors lock, but the passenger door can only be unlocked again by lifting the knob manually. On another site I read that a failed door lock actuator can cause immobilisation – true? Key locking works on driver's and rear doors (not front passenger) but unlocking fails - only driver's door unlocks.

Battery is good and on trickle charge (disconnected) while I figure this thing out. When I turn the key I get a relay clicking, electric motors whir into life but she just won’t crank.

Only other problem is “AIRBAG FAULT” and the SRS light on but it’s been like that for months since I can’t track down that problem either.

There’s no condensation or water around the harnesses; it’s pretty warm and dry here at the moment, and I’ve run out of ideas.

Don’t see a need to play with the RF receiver because it seems to be working OK (unless it’s being swamped by another signal from somewhere?). I’m hoping it’s not the BECM gone South – that might mean it’s time for a new car.

Update on above.

Just been trying to get at the door lock actuator connectors but they're a real bu**er - impossible to see what I'm doing so have given up for now.

But just noticed that, when all the "XXX NOT SET" messages have been cleared, I'm not getting any "ENGINE DISABLED" messages now - just the "AIRBAG FAULT" which is easily cleared by depressing the left stalk switch as you know.

Could the problem be something else entirely? I'm now completely confused.

Does anyone want a few days in sunny Portugal and a cheap Rangie?

Further update on above.

Left the old girl unlocked but with battery connected. When I Iet the dogs out for their final pee late last night, there she was with all the indicators solidly on, but no alarm. No idea how long. Remote lock / unlock worked so I've disconnected the battery again and she sits there forlorn.

I now have now clue ...

Graeme

First check your battery voltage, just because it's on charge doesn't mean it's good. SRS faults often show up with low battery volts as do random alarm and other problems. Check all the earth points for the battery and the cables, they have been known to corrode away inside the plastic sheath. Faulty door locks can cause all sorts of problems but door locks can be damaged by duff RF receivers.

Sounds like you need a syncmate, or becm resync and battery testing.

Datatek said:

First check your battery voltage, just because it's on charge doesn't mean it's good. SRS faults often show up with low battery volts as do random alarm and other problems. Check all the earth points for the battery and the cables, they have been known to corrode away inside the plastic sheath. Faulty door locks can cause all sorts of problems but door locks can be damaged by duff RF receivers.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply.

Battery is 14.87 volts so no apparent problems there. Lights, horn etc. work OK. Can't see any problems with earth points but they're not all easily visible.

Do you suggest replacing the RF receiver? They're not cheap. Can the existing one be tested easily? It's still responding to the remote from a reasonable distance so what type of "duffness" am I looking for?

What am I looking for on door locks?

Graeme

The part of the receiver that connects to the BECM can fail in such a way that it continually sends lock or unlock signals or corrupt signals randomly. Not easy to test unless you have the right equipment.

The door lock will be the motor or the micro switches or both.

Uprated RF Unit will be the best £170 you ever spend on a P38

They fail randomly, picking up spurious signals, partially wakeing BeCM; actuating door motors and burning them out. Yours sounds exactly as mine was - change RF, check battery holds charge then think about door locks

Friday update,

Well I pulled the RF receiver completely and looked at the internals (it's the original part), connected an ammeter and waited for the BECM to go to sleep - which it did, and snoozed at 0.06 amps for some time - no wake-up call. When on it's about 1.16 amps drawn.

Then connected the RF receiver but not the aerial - current fluctuated a bit - 0.6 / 0.7 amps, but then went to sleep and stayed at 0.06 amps.

Then connected aerial. Hey ho - every time it tried to go to sleep it got woken up again straigt away, complete with "beep" from console. Can't isolate signal since it won't stay asleep long enough!

So I pulled both connectors on the receiver again and tried EKA procedure but still a problem with clockwise turn - only first turn gets acknowledged with the repeater flash - so I guess at least one microswitch is cream-crackered. Is there a simple fix? They're a pain to get to hidden away.

Now consistently getting "ENGINE DISABLED - PRESS REMOTE" message but (of course) pressing remote doesn't do anything because receiver is disconnected. So at least I know that the original diagnosis is correct. Interestingly - I don't get this message if the receiver is connected.

Questions:-

1. Do I need an RF receiver connected to be able to start the engine (assuming I could get immobilisation cancelled)? If it's clear that the receiver is duff then I'll replace it, but not if it's something else (e.g. door actuators).

2. Can TestBook remobilise the system if EKA / connect battery at key position II can't be made to work? Seems to be conflicting opinions on this one.

Thanks

GRC

0.6 amps is to high.

It should be 0.2 to 0.3 when the becm goes to sleep, so you have a slight drain.

This drain will kill the battery in half the time it should under normal circumstances.

If you have the gems engine, ie: pre 1999 petrol, then you need to see the " Check Engine" light appear when key is turned to position 2.

If it's not there, then you need to get some diagnostics to put the gems ecu into relearn mode.

You can buy a resyncer for the gems engine off ebay or direct from blackbox solutions that will rectify your problem.

GRC50 said:

Friday update,

Well I pulled the RF receiver completely and looked at the internals (it's the original part), connected an ammeter and waited for the BECM to go to sleep - which it did, and snoozed at 0.06 amps for some time - no wake-up call. When on it's about 1.16 amps drawn.

Then connected the RF receiver but not the aerial - current fluctuated a bit - 0.6 / 0.7 amps, but then went to sleep and stayed at 0.06 amps.

Then connected aerial. Hey ho - every time it tried to go to sleep it got woken up again straigt away, complete with "beep" from console. Can't isolate signal since it won't stay asleep long enough!

So I pulled both connectors on the receiver again and tried EKA procedure but still a problem with clockwise turn - only first turn gets acknowledged with the repeater flash - so I guess at least one microswitch is cream-crackered. Is there a simple fix? They're a pain to get to hidden away.

Now consistently getting "ENGINE DISABLED - PRESS REMOTE" message but (of course) pressing remote doesn't do anything because receiver is disconnected. So at least I know that the original diagnosis is correct. Interestingly - I don't get this message if the receiver is connected.

Questions:-

1. Do I need an RF receiver connected to be able to start the engine (assuming I could get immobilisation cancelled)? If it's clear that the receiver is duff then I'll replace it, but not if it's something else (e.g. door actuators).

2. Can TestBook remobilise the system if EKA / connect battery at key position II can't be made to work? Seems to be conflicting opinions on this one.

Thanks

GRC

Click to expand...

You need to determine if the door switches to enter EKA code are working correctly.
If they are and the BECM does not accept the correct code,then it is likely the BECM has gone into "lockout".Testbook cannot reset this.
There is specialised software and hardware(from BBS) to do this.The BECM will have to be removed and sent to one of the specialists with this capability to unlock and reset the BECM.
Once this is done ,then replace the RF receiver with the latest version to prevent future occurences of "lockout".

GRC50 said:

Friday update,

Well I pulled the RF receiver completely and looked at the internals (it's the original part), connected an ammeter and waited for the BECM to go to sleep - which it did, and snoozed at 0.06 amps for some time - no wake-up call. When on it's about 1.16 amps drawn.

Then connected the RF receiver but not the aerial - current fluctuated a bit - 0.6 / 0.7 amps, but then went to sleep and stayed at 0.06 amps.

Then connected aerial. Hey ho - every time it tried to go to sleep it got woken up again straigt away, complete with "beep" from console. Can't isolate signal since it won't stay asleep long enough!

So I pulled both connectors on the receiver again and tried EKA procedure but still a problem with clockwise turn - only first turn gets acknowledged with the repeater flash - so I guess at least one microswitch is cream-crackered. Is there a simple fix? They're a pain to get to hidden away.

Now consistently getting "ENGINE DISABLED - PRESS REMOTE" message but (of course) pressing remote doesn't do anything because receiver is disconnected. So at least I know that the original diagnosis is correct. Interestingly - I don't get this message if the receiver is connected.

Questions:-

1. Do I need an RF receiver connected to be able to start the engine (assuming I could get immobilisation cancelled)? If it's clear that the receiver is duff then I'll replace it, but not if it's something else (e.g. door actuators).

2. Can TestBook remobilise the system if EKA / connect battery at key position II can't be made to work? Seems to be conflicting opinions on this one.

Thanks

GRC

Click to expand...

So, you have proved that the RF receiver is NBG. As Rick says 0.06 drain is too high LR give a figure of .030 to .035. I reckon you need to sort your door lock problem as the next step. If the RF receiver is totally disconnected, depending on the year you will get the engine dissabled message as when you put the key in the ignition it seems to transmit and the LED flashes, no RF receiver no engine enable.
So change the RF and fix your locks before thinking about the BECM. If you do need the BECM unlocked Rick the Pick or Irishrover are the experts.

Datatek said:

So, you have proved that the RF receiver is NBG. As Rick says 0.06 drain is too high LR give a figure of .030 to .035. I reckon you need to sort your door lock problem as the next step. If the RF receiver is totally disconnected, depending on the year you will get the engine dissabled message as when you put the key in the ignition it seems to transmit and the LED flashes, no RF receiver no engine enable.
So change the RF and fix your locks before thinking about the BECM. If you do need the BECM unlocked Rick the Pick or Irishrover are the experts.

Click to expand...

Spot-on (as usual) Keith, however, replace RF before locks otherwise it'll probably just burn-out the new ones

Hi everyone, and thanks for the continued support. It's not fixed yet but I believe I now know why it happened (see here).

In an attempt to be a bit greener I recently installed a wireless electricity monitoring meter. The wireless transmitter sends the readings every 60 seconds on - you guessed it - 433Mz to the receiver. Wireless range about 30 metres. Distance to P38 RF receiver about 10 metres.

Removed batteries from transmitter - BECM snoozes soundly, albeit 0.06 amps / 60mA which you guys say is too high but is a figure I've seen elsewhere. Put batteries back in, press the magic button and - wakey, wakey BECM.

I think my lockout occured within 48 hours of installing the monitor. Call it circumstantial evidence if you like but it works for me.

OK - so the monitor is off till further notice, now just need to get to the door lock microswitches to see if I can fix them to let me enter the EKA code.

Please pray to a God of your choosing and cross various parts of your anatomy for me - I can't even see the drivers door lock let alone get to it!

More later.

GRC

GRC50 said:

...but I believe I now know why it happened (see here)...

Click to expand...

That sounds just like something that happened to us and our RR, but in our case it was a local bank causing the problem. Something to do with their ruddy wireless security system. It kept on tripping out our alarm. A friend of ours who works near by told me after we found out the problem that he had seen our blinkers fire off several times without the siren going off and he heard her unlock once, although he did go and check and found out that she had re-locked. That made him think I was near by mucking about with him and so he never said a thing until afters.

I did read somewhere that Land Rover does have some sort of fix for this, but as I never bothered to park in the same place again and I have never had it happen again I just left it.

With that bank in mind GRC, just remember not to park up near any Caixa Geral de Depositos branch.

By the way, sent a couple of e-mails in reply to yours. Hope you got them.

Well this has got to be the worst job I've ever tried on the old girl - removal of door latches - what a bu**er .

Finally got the driver's one out and did some tests (here) which seemed to be OK but the clockwise EKA code is still not being accepted (tried with latch outside by directly manipulating latch arm) so maybe some other part or wiring gone.

Haven't removed passenger one yet but I'm pretty sure the motor's gone because remote locking no longer locks this door.

So I'm going to replace both and the RF receiver, because I don't know what state that's in even though it seems to work (too well ).

Can anyone confirm that the right part numbers are as follows?

Latest RF receiver YWY500170
Driver's side door latch FQJ103220
Passenger side door latch FQJ103230

(Reminder - 1997 model chassis no. SALLPAMJ3VA359469)

Can't find an online site that has all of these so it looks lke two separate orders as well - more P&P charges

If anyone thinks I'm on the wrong track or missing something please say so; if this doesn't work then it's BECM out and off somewhere I guess but I'm hoping that it might recover if the above items are replaced. Everything I read says that if any of the above are not 100% the BECM can refuse an EKA code and continue lockout.

This is getting really tedious now ...

Graeme

Island 4x4 has all the above parts showing and they ship abroad. Their shipping charges are competitive and not a rip off.
I get stuff from them, if it's in stock (Most are), it's 2 days to Ireland.
If they have to order the parts in, allow an extra day or so.
Suppose if you wanted them mega quick and are prepared to pay for express courier service they will do it.
Send them a mail or give them a ring before odering if you wish, they are very helpful.
You can order online also.
Their listing shows all variants for the latches, both LH & RH drive.

Thanks for that IR - I had a quick look at Island 4x4 but didn't see the earlier model latches. Slotting an extra couple of neurons back in and doing a general search under "Body" revealed all - excellent news.

Glass or three of red waiting for you if you're ever in these 'ere parts - currently it's 8pm, sunny and 25 degrees, the pool is 30 degrees and the barbie is on. But I still have a dead Rangie so it's not all good

Thanks again.

Graeme

You are rubbing it in now !!!

About 18deg. today and cloudy over here. Now it's started to p**s down

I know where I would rather be !!

Thanks for the invite.....Wish I was there.

before you spend on changing the door locks have you got sombody localy who can read the becm setting you want to check if it has defaulted to a different chassis number and if it is a uk spec car has also changed to french in the becm too!
this will confirm a becm failure and also the drivers door latch is also at fault as it is the latch which spikes the becm and causes the failure i have had this happen on 5 cars in the last 6 months!
i would asume that if it is a left hooker then it mite default to a uk spec though am guessing

vougese39 said:

before you spend on changing the door locks have you got sombody localy who can read the becm setting you want to check if it has defaulted to a different chassis number and if it is a uk spec car has also changed to french in the becm too!
this will confirm a becm failure and also the drivers door latch is also at fault as it is the latch which spikes the becm and causes the failure i have had this happen on 5 cars in the last 6 months!
i would asume that if it is a left hooker then it mite default to a uk spec though am guessing

Click to expand...

The car is a standard UK-spec RHD. My problem is finding specialists over here - not so many V8 P38s in this little debt-ridden bankrupt country. The guy who usually looks after my car (independent now but Land Rover trained at a main dealer) has invested in a testbook (or equivalent - not sure) but I don't think he's into BECMs etc. I'm speaking to him again tomorrow so will see what he says.

I need to do the RF receiver because I've had a lockout once before in the UK - called the RAC and they towed me 50 yards away from the nearest office building and all was well again - alarm system interference. The newest receiver is supposed to be immune - plus I'd like to use my electricity monitor which caused all the bloody problems in the first place .

I think I need to replace the front passenger door latch because this always used to respond to remote locking but doesn't now (see my earlier posts) and conventional widsom suggests this is a burn-out issue.

Front driver's side latch - might as well bite the bullet since I've removed it and dismantled it - even managed to get it back together again but not to be recommended .

Thank you and good night.

GRC

Update

So I've now replaced the RF receiver, fuse box and the two front door latches and the locking works exactly as it should all round. But the old girl still won't start.

The ignition relay RL16 energises but there's no current getting to the starter solenoid as far as I can see.

Diagnostics from the ETM still suggest engine compartment fuse box. The one I bought from eBay was described as suitable and working but, on removal, dismantling and closer inspection (involving cleaning layers of grease from the delicate sticky label), I see that it is an AMR3375 which I read is suitable for VINs up to VA346793, whereas I believe mine was an AMR6405 which was VA346794 - VA376579. My car is VA359469.

On the underside of the PCB my original one read 318181005 UTMAI MY95 (PETROL) 04-11-96 21281
The "new" one reads 318547056 UTMAI LAND-ROVER 38A (PETROL) 8949

Anyone know the differences between these two boxes? Someone told me the only difference is in the A/C clutch circuitry, which (if true) would not account for the starting problems.

Am I stuffed with an incompatible part or do I need to look elsewhere?

Thanks

Graeme